Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:41:28 -0400
From: Jeremy Epstein <jeremy.epstein@...methods.com>
To: "Greg A. Woods" <woods@...rd.com>
Cc: "BUGTRAQ: Full Disclosure Security Mailing List" <bugtraq@...urityFocus.com>
Subject: RE: Diebold Global Election Management System (GEMS) Backdoor Acc
	ount Allows Authenticated Users to Modify Votes


That's a very interesting viewpoint, but one that's directly at odds with
the trend in America today (and probably other countries too).  In the US,
corporations build nearly all the military equipment, do a lot of the
military work, transport the mail (most US mail goes on jets run by private
companies), run some of the jails, provide social services, deliver nearly
all the healthcare (e.g., for Medicare and Medicaid), etc.  In short, the US
government can't run today without substantial work by private industry.

Thus, Greg Woods' statement that we need to be "very clear in stating that
free enterprise (and capitalism) has no place whatsoever at any time in the
creation, formation, and instatement of a government for the people" is a
lovely thought, and totally out of touch with reality.  Not saying he's
wrong in his desire; just that it's a much bigger issue than voting
machines.

Arguing that the government shouldn't be relying on private corporations to
provide voting machines misses the point.  The government ISN'T going to
build its own voting machines; it's going to rely on the private sector,
using laws and regulations to keep risk at an acceptable level.

Besides, given what most of us know about government efficiency, would you
WANT the government to be designing and building voting machines?  Be
careful of what you wish for, as you may get it!

--Jeremy

P.S. Worth noting that Mr. Woods lives in Canada, as judging by his domain
and phone number.  The relationship of government and private industry may
be different in Canada from the US; I have no idea and wouldn't hazard a
guess.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg A. Woods [mailto:woods@...rd.com] 
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 2:26 PM
> To: Jeremy Epstein
> Cc: BUGTRAQ: Full Disclosure Security Mailing List
> Subject: RE: Diebold Global Election Management System (GEMS) 
> Backdoor Account Allows Authenticated Users to Modify Votes
> 
> 
> [ On Thursday, September 23, 2004 at 06:21:03 (-0400), Jeremy 
> Epstein wrote: ]
> > Subject: RE: Diebold Global Election Management System 
> (GEMS) Backdoor     Account    Allows Authenticated Users to 
> Modify Votes
> >
> > And I'd strongly discourage folks from calling for open 
> source, as it 
> > plays directly into the hands of folks like Diebold, who claim that 
> > the people (like me) who want Voter Verified Paper Audit Trails 
> > (VVPATs) are really trying to kill free enterprise.  [Yes, 
> I know all 
> > the examples of businesses based on open source, but that's 
> not what 
> > this is about.]
> 
> Well, that's pretty stupid.
> 
> The answer is not to try to show that open source can be used 
> in captialistic ventures, but rather to be very clear in 
> stating that free enterprise (and capitalism) has no place 
> whatsoever at any time in the creation, formation, and 
> instatement of a government for the people.
> 
> Indeed those involved in creating a government for the people 
> need to be very wary of even the support of corporate 
> entities since such support can invoke almost infinitely more 
> power than any one governed individual can ever hold over his 
> or her government or a government representative.
> 
> Just as the Church(es) has(have) no place in the halls of 
> government, neither do corporations.  Corporations, despite 
> being legally individuals, don't even need one vote as no 
> matter what governments might do to regulate them they still 
> have far more power than any human individual.
> 
> -- 
> 						Greg A. Woods
> 
> +1 416 218-0098                  VE3TCP            RoboHack 
> <woods@...ohack.ca>
> Planix, Inc. <woods@...nix.com>          Secrets of the Weird 
> <woods@...rd.com>
> 

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