Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:41:09 -0500
From: Tracy Bost <tbost@...raisalforum.com>
To: Mike Healan <mike@...wareinfo.com>
Cc: Jeremy Epstein <jeremy.epstein@...methods.com>,
	bugtraq@...urityfocus.com
Subject: Re: Diebold Global Election Management System (GEMS) Backdoor   
 	Account    Allows Authenticated Users to Modify Votes


I've been following this thread and bit and can't hold back my 2 cents .

Running voting machines on OSS software seems obvious its the only way 
to do it correctly, since its true noone trusts each other.

Each polictical party can have their own team of hired geeks to make 
sure the code stays clean and fair.
Otherwise, it become a finger pointing and guessing game.





Mike Healan wrote:

>> And I'd strongly discourage folks from calling for open source, as it 
>> plays
>> directly into the hands of folks like Diebold, who claim that the people
>> (like me) who want Voter Verified Paper Audit Trails (VVPATs) are really
>> trying to kill free enterprise.  
>
>
> I understand your point but I disagree with it entirely.
>
> Yes, I'm sure they'll grasp at any FUD they can to head off what they 
> do not want. IMHO that shouldn't stop the call for open source 
> software (OSS) to run those voting machines. Killing off free 
> enterprise is clearly not the reason why people want OSS as, as you 
> say, it is a different issue entirely.
>
> Australia's voting machines are electronic and the software running 
> them is OSS. They don't seem to be having any problems with it. It 
> must be nice to be able to fully trust that the vote just cast was 
> recorded properly. That's a feeling I don't have here at home.
>
> Personally, I want a voting machine running code that any suspicious 
> geek can double (triple, quadruple, etc) check and that verifies to 
> me, on paper, that it recorded exactly which votes I cast. Considering 
> that the future of the world's only global superpower depends on the 
> outcome, I don't think that's too much to ask.
>
> Points 2 and 3 I'll agree with.
>
>> (4) WRT getting one set of software approved, and then installing 
>> another...
>> that's an old problem in any environment.
>
>
> If I recall correctly, this is exactly what Diebold has been accused 
> of doing in at least two states (Georgia, which concerns me directly, 
> and California), has been sued for it and has even had their software 
> decertified for it.
>
> Maybe OSS should be used and maybe it shouldn't. Given Diebold's 
> record to date, I believe they should be barred from making *any* of 
> these machines. I don't trust them and I sincerely hope I don't see 
> their name stamped on the voting machine I use in 5 weeks.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Healan
> Editor
> www.spywareinfo.com
>
>
> Jeremy Epstein wrote:
>
>> As someone who's been involved in the electronic voting controversy, I'd
>> like to add a few points:
>>
>> (1) I agree that source code should be inspected by someone truly
>> independent and competent, and that the standards for approving voting
>> machines should be stronger.  However, that's NOT the same as open 
>> source.
>> And I'd strongly discourage folks from calling for open source, as it 
>> plays
>> directly into the hands of folks like Diebold, who claim that the people
>> (like me) who want Voter Verified Paper Audit Trails (VVPATs) are really
>> trying to kill free enterprise.  [Yes, I know all the examples of 
>> businesses
>> based on open source, but that's not what this is about.]  As an 
>> example,
>> Harris Miller, the president of ITAA (www.itaa.org), a politically
>> influential consortium of technology vendors, is on record as having 
>> equated
>> the VVPAT groups with the open source community.  So rather than putting
>> your energy into trying to get Diebold et al to move to open source, it
>> would be far more productive to put your energy into VVPATs.  Towards 
>> that
>> end, I'll encourage everyone participating in this discussion to look at
>> www.verifiedvoting.org.  VVPATs can give us the assurance we need of
>> accurate elections, without delving into the political morass of open 
>> source
>> and related topics.
>>
>> (2) WRT the web page showing a "Sun server when discussing Windows", 
>> I hope
>> people realize that web pages for companies are made up by marketing 
>> people
>> who don't understand the difference.  Don't hold that against them... 
>> There
>> are plenty of real reasons to oppose Diebold.
>>
>> (3) WRT requiring that the technology protect itself in case the users
>> don't, that's simply unrealistic.  In *any* real computer system, 
>> there are
>> expectations about the environment (e.g., the administrators aren't 
>> hostile
>> to the functioning of the system).  It's important to state what those
>> expectations are, but there will ALWAYS be some that rely on 
>> non-technical
>> means.  The important part about election systems is that they be 
>> explicitly
>> stated, and they be enforceable using non-technical means (e.g., by 
>> having
>> locks on doors).  The problem today is that some of the assumptions 
>> (e.g.,
>> the vendor provided software doesn't have any bugs) are clearly 
>> unrealistic.
>>
>> (4) WRT getting one set of software approved, and then installing 
>> another...
>> that's an old problem in any environment.  The way it's supposed to 
>> work in
>> election systems is that a particular version is approved, and it's 
>> illegal
>> for the vendor to install something different.  If there are teeth in 
>> the
>> law, and the vendor can be fined for installing illegal software, 
>> then it's
>> a reasonable non-technical measure.  Of course, one could also use 
>> things
>> like cryptographic checksums to verify that what's installed is what was
>> approved.  That still requires non-technical elements, such as that the
>> people who ran the checksums weren't deliberately trying to cover up a
>> change, the checksums were protected from tampering, the software that
>> calculated the checksums wasn't subverted, etc.  [For those of us old 
>> enough
>> to remember, vendors were required to address this as part of "Orange 
>> Book"
>> evaluations, and are now required to address it as part of Common 
>> Criteria
>> evaluations.]
>>
>> Bottom line, election systems are no different than any other systems in
>> that the security of the whole system is based on risk management.  
>> While we
>> should have higher expectations of election software than office 
>> automation
>> software, let's recognize what it is.  IMHO, VVPATs are the only real 
>> way to
>> go.
>>
>> --Jeremy
>>
>>
>
>

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