From: aliver at xexil.com (aliver@...il.com)
Subject: tradecraft and subversion

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, sockz loves you wrote:
> a "non-criminal blackhat"... dude, there's no such thing.  quit
> fantasising.

I've made my definition clear. If it doesn't fit yours that's not my
problem. I don't need you to venerate it to make it legit in my mind.

[left my comment quoted here to provide context]
> > code "toolz" but don't use them illegally. Of course my efforts are for
> > research purposes only, and if someone else decides to use my tools
> > illegally, then they are a bad bad person and I just couldn't condone that
> > at all, no sir, not at all, honest. I'm not a huge exploit coder, but I

[we now return you to sockz comments]
> so in other words you're just a normal computer geek/nerd/whatever.

That's your opinion, I don't share it and I doubt that most
"geek/nerd/whatever" folks would either.

> you have the intelligence, but lack the guts to go either way (black or
> white).

I think my position has been made clear. It's obviously not too popular
with people like you, or with whitehats. I'd say that most people choose a
label since they want validation by some group of peers. Obviously, I'm
not seeking that, but attempting to make myself heard, and to engage in
technical discourse with other people who are like-minded. I don't think
any of those motives qualifies me as gutless. However, again, your opinion
is not something I need to build a self-image, so it really doesn't matter
either way.

> that doesn't make you a hacker.  it makes you "someone who can do use
> computers". no more.  possibly less.

Here is where you begin with a lot of negative insinuations and personal
attacks. Your poorly written description of "someone who can do use
computers" is certainly a subset of an accurate description of me. As far
as your suggestion that it could be a superset, I disagree. However, I
think those in this forum can decide for themselves, and my opinion of
myself is already formed. I post opinions, technical discourse, and code.
You have posted only opinions, and at least on this occasion, a group of
"straw man" type personal attacks. I don't think it'll take long for a
rational person to come to a conclusion. The tactics of an enemy or
detractor are often a good indication of their weapons and resources. Your
tactics are mostly composed of thin personal attacks. Which tells me that
what you may really possess in terms of skills or experience would
probably be unsurpisingly little.

> my favourite flavour is strawberry.  do you have anything to accomodate
> my tastes?

inane: adj.
One that lacks sense or substance.

> let me get this right... cuz i think i'm missing something here... you
> claim to be (in your own words) a "non-criminal blackhat"

	Correct. A Blackhat by my definition is a person who adopts the
philosophy of non-disclosure due to some motivation like anti-corporatism,
and subsequently creates code or other meaningful content to serve their
own political motives rather than a canned set of "ethics" written by
someone else.
	It seems that your definition involves committing criminal acts.
Ever been to jail? Ever been on probation for a few years? I have, and I
know the value of my freedom. There is precious little I'm willing to risk
it for. I have some unpopular political and social viewpoints, and I'm
willing to do some unpopular things to serve them. However, they are not
as precious to me as my freedom. That's where the line gets drawn. You
think that's cowardly? I think it's a bit of wisdom that comes with age or
experience. Ever notice how almost all the soldiers that die in a war are
young men? That's because when you tell an old man to rush a machine gun
nest he's a lot more likely to say, "You tell your mama to rush that
fucking machine gun nest." They pick young men because they are less
likely to fully think things through, and more likely to act on impulse.
The moral of the story is don't mistake wisdom for cowardice or caution
for ignorance. You don't need to be old or young to appreciate that, just
smart.

> who posts to vuln-dev and Full Disclosure for free advice in relation to
> your own "projects"?  dude, thats fucked up.

I'm not posting to vuln-dev, I've stated that. As far as the free advice
jab - whatever. Maybe you aren't speaking up because you don't have any?
You know, come to think of it, I've seen very little from you that isn't
meant as inflammatory. Your aggressively condescending attitude would
serve you better if you had any kind of credibility. With me, if you can't
code or don't have the ability to exercise reason or logic then you have
zero credibility. Doubtful you care, but making empty personal attacks and
snipes also buys you a couple of clicks on the lame-o-meter.

> *spins out* i hate to break it to you, aliver, but you're not a hacker
> at all.  you're really just whitehat trash...

Heh. Somehow I doubt that those I consider whitehats out there would
welcome me into their circles (not that I care or want in anyway). I'm not
all that popular in either clique'.  Good, since as a rule cliques' are
for high school kids and old women in bridge clubs. Labels and stereotypes
are merely heuristics, those who cling to them too tightly may be
considered intransigently narrow-minded.

> > Anyhow, the basic concept is that "spat"  sits on a given port and acts
> > like an SMTP, POP3, IMAP, FTP, or whatever server. When clients connect to
> > this server, the server attempts to exploit and own them.
> ...that or you're a moron for telling everyone about your spat project...

Your comments are again, inane. What does this weak personal attack have
to do with the content you quote? Furthermore, I choose to tell who I want
about what I want when I want to do it. I follow my own rules, not the
understood guidelines of some clique' that you seem to feel an authority
on.

> > Project "xxtleet" (pronounced "zeetleet"):
> > leetspeak rant of about 24k - 40k. Any ideas on the lexigraphic engine or
> > the encoding scheme would be appreciated.
> ...then again the two labels go hand-in-hand, really.

Inane comment #3. Baseless personal attack #4. Try some logic sometime, it
may serve you better. As an aside, I find it amusing that you are quoting
semi-technical description of one of my projects, and using it as a
platform for yet another weak personal attack. I think that says something
about you. Now you see, that's a personal comment, but one with some
clearly visable weight to back it up. It's one of many things a rational
individual tends to look for when making decisions about a person.

> do you always expect everyone to go out of their way to look after your
> interests?

No, in fact I expect most people to go out of their way to try and attack
me, do me in, steal from me, jealously attempt to denigrate my views or
work, or simply be jerks. Actually, most people behave much like you do
and treat me in the aforementioned manner, and I try to seek the people
who are like me. I usually end up disillusioned and sticking to my small
group of close friends. The world is an unfriendly place, and I have no
illusions otherwise.

> i bet your mother gave you everything you wanted as a child.

My mother gave me kindness, and that was enough. As far as being
privileged, I was certainly not. Most of my life until recently has been
spent being poor. Your basis for personal attack #5 here is very
diaphanous, and at this point comes off as a little humorous.

> cuz you dont really seem to be any kind of blackhat to me.

Tough. You can apply the label any way you like. I am what I am, and again
I don't really care if you hate it or hate the way I use a label you are
sensitive to.

> in fact, i'd be more inclined to label you as a 'spoiled brat'.

Personal attack #6. Another straw-man tactic? *Yawn*

> you should quit relying on other ppl to do your own homework.  its
> really quite pathetic.

Well, contrary to your opinion, I think that working with other people who
think like myself and who have some skills can be rewarding. I'm
anti-social to be sure, but not so much that I don't know the value of
collaboration with other talent, and it's sometimes refreshing to meet a
kindred spirit.  I've written a pretty good deal of code in my time and
I'm fully capable of "doing my own homework". In response to attack #7, I
feel that your entire post has been somewhat pathetic and lacking in
weight or content.  Do you really have nothing better to do than lash out
with personal attacks at a faceless entity on a mailing list? To
paraphrase your message: I'm probably a gutless, spoiled brat; in fact, a
moron who reveals too much about his projects, got everything he wanted
from his mother, and finally, relies on others to do his "homework". I
think you should study formal logic to give your arguments some weight. I
also think you are a small person for making such flimsy personal attacks.

aliver

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