From: se_cur_ity at hotmail.com (morning_wood)
Subject: Re: USDOJ BRAINWASHING TECHNIQUES

flaming white hats never fail to show true colors


----- Original Message -----
From: "Darren Reed" <avalon@...igula.anu.edu.au>
To: "sockz loves you" <sockz@...il.com>
Cc: <full-disclosure@...ts.netsys.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Re: USDOJ BRAINWASHING TECHNIQUES


> In some mail from sockz loves you, sie said:
> >
> > i agree entirely.  when hackers start to kill millions of people, maybe
THEN
> > can we turn around and say "okay, its illegal".  the governments of our
> > nations commit far worse crimes on a daily basis than we do as citizens.
>
> Do you seriously subscribe to this logic ?
>
> Do you even understand how flawed this approach is ?
>
> It is this sort of stupidity that gives rise to suicide bombings
> in the middle east that dominate the news every day.
>
> Put simply, two wrongs do not make a right.
>
> > citizens who
> > are concerned about their civil rights, or are naturally curious about
the
> > world around them.  this is why hacking should be decriminalised.
>
> There are ways and means for citizens to feed their curiosity.
> For example, there is something called "Freedom of Information" that
> is recognised by many Governments.  You may not like it that not all
> information is available through FoI but there are good reasons for
> that but a naive player may not understand that.
>
> Don't like the way yours implements it or lack thereof?
>
> Get active politically and try get it changed.
>
> No, you more than likely won't be able to do that from the comfort of
> your own home, you'll need to go out and talk/meet with people and
> discuss things.
>
> Similarly, if you don't like the way the Government does something else,
> get active and do something to make it change.  Don't just sit there and
> use it to justify hacking because that won't change or fix anything. How
> much are you prepared to do to make the world a better place if you think
> there are really problems with it, hmm ?  Here's a hint: hacking into any
> network or sending email here is not going to change a thing.
>
> > its a white
> > collar crime that wouldn't even be an issue if it weren't for
corporations
> > whining about losing money.
>
> Ok, you sound like the typical hacker who does not understand what
> the word "responsibility" means or that actions have consequences.
>
> Hacking is no different to "break and enter".  The means might
> be different but that's about it.  Unauthorised entry.  Unless
> you're going to say that "break and enter" should be a white
> collar crime, too?
>
> > okay sure, there have been a few major digital
> > protests in the past, but how are these different from real life
> > demonstrations?
>
> Because you will often find, enshrined in law, the right to assemble
> and/or protest.  The typical real-life protest involves 1000s of like
> minded people getting together as a show of collective strength.  I'm
> not sure what you are referring to by digital protests, but if you're
> alluding to denial of service attacks then the difference is quite
> simply that they're orchestrated by relatively few (less than 10.)
> Simulating 20,000 people with a robot is nowhere near the same as
> getting 20,000 people to do something of their own _free will_.
>
> > is not resistance, freedom of information, and activism a fundamental
> > right of being human?  this is no more the DOJ's world than it is my
> > world, so why should there be a different set of rules for Government
> > and People?
>
> The difference is in how you want to see them implemented.
>
> You want to engage in activism with unauthorised activity and gain
> information through improper channels using methods that are more
> representative of criminal action than good citizens.
>
> Get smart about what you're doing.  Well, first I suppose you need to
> grow up and mature, then maybe, with time, you'll understand and be
> able to be smart rather than stupid about what you do to achieve the
> correct goals.
>
> > oh and darren, no i wasn't joking about encouraging the young hacker to
> > develop his skills.  its a legitimate option.
>
> Then young hackers should practice and hone their skills in an
> environment where they do not impact on anyone else, just like
> responsible people do with other weapons.  Maybe you should create
> a "hack" network, charge people $X per month for access and let
> people do what they want there.  Do some basic admin and install
> various software packets, etc, to make it "interesting".  Oh, and
> make it isolated from any and all other networks.
>
>
>
> In short, there is nothing cool or right about hacking and that
> message needs to be conveyed through whatever means to impressionable
> young people as part of their upbringing to ensure they grow up and
> have a reasonable amount of respect for each other in the growing
> digital world around them.
>
> Darren
> _______________________________________________
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>

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