From: dlhane at sbcglobal.net (David Hane)
Subject: A rather newbie question

Bart,

I hope no one thinks I said those things! The Dave in question is 
"dk  dk@...rchitects.com" not me, Dave Hane.  Too many Dave's on this thread 
:-)

On Tuesday 04 May 2004 12:04, Bart.Lansing@...ls.com wrote:
> Dave...et al...
>
> full-disclosure-admin@...ts.netsys.com wrote on 05/03/2004 05:28:43 PM:
> > Harlan Carvey wrote:
> > >  Yes, I can agree with that...I do get the point. But who are the
> > >  users? Say you're an admin at a law firm...if the users are supposed
> > >  to be security-conscious (face it, a great many admins lack even the
> > >  most rudimentary security awareness), then shouldn't the admins be
> > >  required to have a law degree, also? How about a hospital...shouldn't
> > >  each admin then have to have a medical degree?
>
> SNIPS HERE AND THERE, but DAVE STARTS IN HERE WITH:
> > I admin a small Architectural Firm with a mix of OS's, mailservers,
> > webservers,
> > specialized applications, workstations, laptops, plotters, printers...
> > etc...
> > Basically anything that has electrons move through it I am expected to
>
> have
>
> > knowledge of or at least have the number to someone who does (I don't do
> > Copiers).  I am also to create and manage the electronic document
> > standards for
> > the CAD applications and electronic document submittal, research new
> > means and
> > methods, etc, etc, on and on.
> >
> > Point of my rambling here is: When I am not doing one of the above (My
> > primary job description) I am fully expected to fill in for
> > Architectural Design
> > and do the job of a 1st or 2nd year Architectural Intern that has a 4
>
> year
>
> > degree in Architecture.  I do all of this, for less than 30k yr and
>
> neither
>
> > posses a Degree in any of the Computer Sciences nor in any of the
> > Architecture
> > fields. (And for bonus points, if you carefully read my sentances you
> > will see
> > that I do not possess a Degree in English either! :)   ) I am never
> > given time
> > to research or practice the Architecture side of my job, but I am
> > expected to
> > do it to a degree FAR greater than most admins ask the users to educate
> > themselves about "The Computer" or "Windows" when they have spare time.
> >
> > I would love to trade shoes with them for a week and see how we'd both
>
> fare.
>
> Dave, I have to tell you that I'll bet you are in a very small minority
> here, vis a vis being expected to both IT and business contribute...and
> you are being rather seriously mistreated financially, by the way.
>
> > >  I agree that harmless joking is fine...but I've seen instances in
> > >  which that harmless joking became part of the admin's vocabulary,
> > >  even in front of those same users.
> >
> > Well I think this may come from the frustrations of the modern American
> > Business outlook that the "Computer" is nothing but a big typewriter
> > glued to a
> > Fax machine that produces money when the right keys are pressed
> > And perhaps in part because most "Admin's" are expected to fill many
> > more shoes than the co-workers they support.
> >
> > So I've called my users, lusers for years to ease the frustrations that
> > I must
> > endure daily in slowly repeating attachment mantra's, how to sync your
>
> palm,
>
> > how to change your background, why the "internet" is broke on their
> > laptop (hint:
> > plug in the blue cable Boss)....
> >
> > If *I* handled myself in an equal but opposite manner in regards to my
> > assumed
> > "Architecture responcibilities", I'd be out of a job.
>
> Going to go back here, based on your being in the minority, and say simply
> that it ain't your job to perform brain surgery, defend someone in a
> trial, or even tune up the chevy....and it ain't their job to know any
> more than they have to to make the "tool" that their PC really is do what
> they need it to do.  And...since I manage close to 5000
> desktops/users...as well as the CIRT that handles this corporate
> environment...trust me that my potential for frustration and aggravation
> exceeds yours by factors. Do we have moments around here where we would
> like to throttle someone? Of course.  Do we insult/belittle them? Of
> course....NOT.  Hey...Dave...incoming clue:  THESE PEOPLE ARE THE ONLY
> REASON YOU HAVE A JOB.  NO END USERS, NO COMPUTER INDUSTRY...AT
> ALL...ANYWHERE. If you can't deal with the fact that they do not, as a
> rule, "get it" about infosec...about netiquette, about the routine care
> and feeding of today's PCs...and that they don't want to have to "get
> it"...you may want to think about a place in the industry that does not
> involve end-user interraction.  Bearing in mind of course, that that job
> too is dependent on your "Lusers".
>
> > I just want that door to swing BOTH ways. Until then, they are the
> > Lusers and I am
> > the Long Haired Freak giving up another Sunday evening tweaking the
> > Bayesian filter
> > so sweet Edna over in Accounting can get her Amway newsletter.
>
> And as long as you keep denigrating the people who are the reason you get
> to pay your rent and eat...that's probably all you'll ever be.
>
> > But Edna ain't so sweet
> > when late is my timesheet,
> > or even incomplete.
> >
> > :)
> >
> > --
> > Dave
>
> But Edna gets you paid, and I'm betting the check is on time or you are
> bitching about it.
>
> Cheers
>
> Bart
>
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