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From: pwicks at oxygen.com (James Patterson Wicks) Subject: lame bitching about xpsp2 -- "In all fairness, "I am good with windows" means "I know where to -- click", nothing more and shows how the typical M$ user is scared as hell -- of having ever one day to learn Unix, go through RFCs ( what for ? M$ -- don't even read em themselves ), and use the command line. ( Not DOS, a -- proper unix shell ). Why is that ? Well its similar at people who refuse -- somit in block before having tried it, its just plain stupidity and -- their ego gets hurts thinking they might have to start from zero." The business world cannot afford to "start from zero" and retrain tens of millions of workers who use Windows desktops every day. The business world needs secretaries to manage calendars and write memos, not learn command line syntax. The business world needs lawyers who can sit down and knock out a brief in Word in a few minutes, not someone who needs to learn a bunch of keyboard shortcuts in a command-line text editor. Time is money, and it cost too much money to re-train a world of Windows users. The cost to send one of our lower-level sales associates to a one-week Unix class is between $2300 and $2500. Add to that the man hours that you lose when the person is out for a week (40 hrs * $15/hr = $600). That's around $3000 for one class. Who can learn command-line in one week? Let's say that it takes two classes for the sales associate to become proficient enough to run *nix from the command line. That's around $6,000 to learn a new OS. Even if you went the freebie route and installed all open-source OS and applications, what about the cost to have someone come in and install them? Then you have the cost to train the sales associate on the new applications (another weeklong course for $2000 + and salary). Then you have data migration costs. I conservative estimate would set the cost to move ONE employee from Windows to *nix would be around $10k. Multiply that by the number of employees (with adjustments for salary) and a company of 300 and you are talking over $3 million to move USERS to *nix. This number does not even address the cost of data migration, retraining administrators and changing to *nix on the servers. This number also does not calculate soft costs like loss of productivity during the migration, but you should get the point. Unless you are starting up a business now, going with *nix can be incredibly cost prohibitive. It's not about "stupidity" or someone getting their ego hurt, it's about the cost of doing business and remaining competitive. -----Original Message----- From: full-disclosure-admin@...ts.netsys.com [mailto:full-disclosure-admin@...ts.netsys.com] On Behalf Of devis Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 8:51 AM To: Full-disclosure Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] lame bitching about xpsp2 It seems hard to beleive how people are tolerant and easy to forgive M$ for doing such mistake along their product release. How do you a tag a product 'professionnal' when it gets owned by 41 kb of malware code ? Not throwing the stone, but M$ has never been careful about security, and often been blamed, rightfully, for the high numbers of clones / owned machines are there, that disrupt the internet with malicious traffic. But somehow, people seems to turn a blind eye to the past, and actually pat Microsoft in the back for SP2. Short term memory ? Or is it really your ego that gets upset if you had to remove these winbox ? Using M$ systems, they always managed to boost your ego, being an 'administrator' and having 'all that power' at the click of your mouse. In all fairness, "I am good with windows" means "I know where to click", nothing more and shows how the typical M$ user is scared as hell of having ever one day to learn Unix, go through RFCs ( what for ? M$ don't even read em themselves ), and use the command line. ( Not DOS, a proper unix shell ). Why is that ? Well its similar at people who refuse somit in block before having tried it, its just plain stupidity and their ego gets hurts thinking they might have to start from zero. Tough, but after MacOS, i am pretty sure even M$ will use Unix as a base in future windows versions, maybe without never saying admitting it, as they did so many times before. Longhorn boast "msh", the M$ shell. ( sh geez thats original ). The goal of M$ is to archieve total control of information, and they already succeed, mainly due to fools that defend their business model, not having a clue what the rest is, and worse turning a blind eye to it, feeling safe in their 'clicking knowledge' comfort. M$ business model is a threat to our freedom, and i would like our childrens to have a choice, and not be formated the M$ way. There is no patting, accolade nor felicitations to give to M$ for sp2. Its 6 years late, and has scared many consumer pc users, and has turned the internet in a giant malware collection. And i should thank em for sp2 ? No WAY. I am still getting nimda probes ..... Wake UP before its too LATE. My 2 cents. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html This e-mail is the property of Oxygen Media, LLC. 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