Date: Tue Aug  2 16:21:32 2005
From: bkfsec at sdf.lonestar.org (bkfsec)
Subject: Cisco IOS Shellcode Presentation

Micheal Espinola Jr wrote:

>persuasion by possible threat of action/retaliation is still
>persuasion.  
>
Yeah yeah yeah... and a sword is just a knife.

Technically, you're correct -- coercion is a form of persuasion.  
However, coercion is not all forms of persuasion, and that is the 
distinction that Steve was trying to make.  Coercion is to persuasion as 
a sword is to a knife.

Is one a subset of the other?  Sort of...

Are they used for the same thing?  Not at all... unless you cut butter 
with a sword, that is.

>You aren't forced to do it.  Children world-wide are
>taught right from wrong under this edict.
>
>  
>
Personally, I buy the argument that we definately do make choices in all 
regards... there's never not a choice.  However, as most general rules 
go, when applied to reality your results may vary.

Coercion forces someone's hand.  Let's take an example...

Someone sees you walking somewhere (I don't know.. to the store, 
perhaps...) and you're on the same side of the street that they're on.  
Something about you offends them and one of two scenarios happen:

1. The offended person says "Walk on the other side of the street."

2. The offended person either brandishes a gun in your face and says 
"Get on the other side of the street or you're dead!" or threatens to 
call the police on you.

In which scenario are you more likely to cross the street?

I don't know about you, but if someone just tells me to do something, 
I'm not terribly inclined to do it.  Why be put out of my way for the 
exclusive gain of a stranger?  Why should my rights be impinged upon 
because of someone else's oddness?

However, in the second example, I'd be more inclined to cross the street 
for the simple fact that crossing the street causes me less grief than 
being shot or dealing with someone making false accusations.

Coercion changes the nature of your choices.  All choices are not 
equal.  Any argument that they are, frankly, disregards reality.

>Your gun violence comparison is a bit over the top.
>
>  
>
Not at all.  If Lynn is subjected to criminal prosecution, the gunpoint 
analogy will be entirely valid.

             -Barry

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