Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:30:00 +0200
From: "Avraham Schneider" <avri.schneider@...il.com>
To: "j-f sentier" <j.sentiar@...il.com>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: The war in Palestine

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:06 PM, j-f sentier <j.sentiar@...il.com> wrote:
> Relativisation in this case is neccessary, because the UK took this land
> from arabians,
> and gived it to jews mostly because it was
> supposedly them promised land.
> Before that maybe not much arabians was living there, but still it was them
> land.
> The not legit attribution in 1948 of the land to israel was the conflict
> starter and still today, now excuses have changed, palestinian are throwing
> rocks and old school rockets around the border in israel.
> What have changed so far ? as i sayed in my first post on this topic, israel
> is very young 61 years old, and have been in war with all of them neighbors,
> also while fighting with them, israel once again has taken more land during
> theses wars.

History time-line (facts)
17th-6th C. BCE

c.17th century (BCE) - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - patriarchs of the
Jewish people and bearers of a belief in one God - settle in the Land
of Israel. Famine forces Israelites to migrate to Egypt.
c.13th century (BCE) - Exodus from Egypt: Moses leads Israelites from
Egypt, followed by 40 years of wandering in the desert.
Torah, including the Ten Commandments, received at Mount Sinai.
13th-12th centuries (BCE) - Israelites settle in the Land of Israel
c.1020 (BCE) -	Jewish monarchy established; Saul, first king.
c.1000 (BCE) -	Jerusalem made capital of David's kingdom.
c.960 (BCE) -	First Temple, the national and spiritual center of the
Jewish people, built in Jerusalem by King Solomon.
c. 930 (BCE) -	Divided kingdom: Judah and Israel
722-720 (BCE) -	Israel crushed by Assyrians; 10 tribes exiled (Ten Lost Tribes).
586 (BCE) 	- Judah conquered by Babylonia; Jerusalem and First Temple
destroyed; most Jews exiled.
538 - 142 (BCE) - Persian and Hellenistic periods
538 - 515 (BCE) - Many Jews return from Babylonia; Temple rebuilt.
332 (BCE) - Land conquered by Alexander the Great; Hellenistic rule.
166-160 (BCE) - Maccabean (Hasmonean) revolt against restrictions on
practice of Judaism and desecration of the Temple
142-129 (BCE) - Jewish autonomy under Hasmoneans.
129-63 (BCE) - Jewish independence under Hasmonean monarchy.
63 (BCE) - Jerusalem captured by Roman general, Pompey.
63-4 BCE - Herod, Roman vassal king, rules the Land of Israel; Temple
in Jerusalem refurbished
c. 20-33 (CE) - Ministry of Jesus of Nazareth
66 (CE) - Jewish revolt against the Romans
70 (CE) - Destruction of Jerusalem and Second Temple.
73 (CE) - Last stand of Jews at Masada.
132-135 (CE) - Bar Kokhba uprising against Rome.
614 (CE) - Persian invasion
636-1099 (CE) - Arab rule
691 (CE) - On site of First and Second Temples in Jerusalem, Dome of
the Rock built by Caliph Abd el-Malik.
1099-1291 (CE) - Crusader domination (Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem)
1291-1516 (CE) - Mamluk rule
1517-1917 (CE) - Ottoman rule
1882-1903 (CE) - First Aliya (large-scale immigration), mainly from Russia.
1897 (CE) - First Zionist Congress convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel,
Switzerland; Zionist Organization founded.
1904-14 (CE) - Second Aliya, mainly from Russia and Poland.
1909 (CE) - First kibbutz, Degania, and first modern all-Jewish city,
Tel Aviv, founded.
1917 (CE) - 400 years of Ottoman rule ended by British
conquest;British Foreign Minister Balfour pledges support for
establishment of a "Jewish national home in Palestine"
1918-48 (CE) - British rule


As you can see, it was not taken from Arabs but was given by the
British, who took it from the Ottomans.

>
> I can understand why palestinian mothers are telling to theirs sons to wear
> a bomb, and blow themself to kill some israelians, i totally do not approve
> this, but as a mather of fact, i understand the despair for this people
> (open-mind is a crime ?).
teaching your kid to strap a bomb against their chest and commit
suicide while murdering innocent people is much more like child abuse
than being open-minded if you ask me. I think others here would
concur.

>
> Also as i sayed in my first post, another problem of  Israelites is that
> they think they are elected  by god... and then are superior to any other
> race/religion, i'm not inventing nothing here.. it's written in the Thora.
>
> Just this fact  is a fundamental communication problem, for any discution
> because persons such as Avraham will always overlook the others point of
> view.
I think a bigger communication problem is being blind (on purpose) to facts.

>
> I'm not pro-palestinian
Could have fooled me.

> or pro-israel, the only thing i know is
> relativisation in such conflict should be always the first thing to do
> before dumping any crap from your brain.
Why don't you start then?

>
> A correction for Avraham:
> Jews != Israel
A Jew is a decendent of Avraham, Isac and Jacob on the father side,
having a Jewish mother.
Conversion to Judaism is also possible, bud discouraged for reasons I
will not get into here.

Jacob's name was changed by G-d to Israel - you can find it in the
Torah - not that I expect or want you to read it.

> Sionists != Jews
1897 (CE) - First Zionist Congress convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel,
Switzerland; Zionist Organization founded.
Zionism was an international political movement that supported the
reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in the Land of
Israel.


>
> Also you sayed that jews that dont support the state and actions of israel,
> are not real jews, or have lost the believe, this again is propaganda , as
To clarify - I did not say they are not real Jews.

As for propaganda - see my previous points on the difference between
facts and propaganda.

> the US government was doing in USA a few years ago, "if you're not for the
> invasion/war in irak/afghanistan, you're not a real american".
It is obvious that you are also against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The reason the US is fighting there is close to the reason why
Israelis are fighting in Gaza - to ensure peace to their citizens.
Should I remind you of 9-11?

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2009/1/6 Ed Carp <erc@...ox.com>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:14 AM, j-f sentier <j.sentiar@...il.com> wrote:
>>
>> > "what would you call your lies"
>> > Which lies ?
>> > You're tunnel-focused on your point, with no relativisation at all,
>> > which
>>
>> Relativism is for opinions, not for fact.
>>
>> > There's two side on a medial, dont forget that, that's why i say you're
>> > doing propaganda, while criticizing the other propaganda.
>>
>> No, there's not - the only side is the truth, the facts, which I guess
>> you choose to label as lies and propaganda.  What was presented is
>> FACT, not opinion.  How can FACT be relative?
>
>

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