Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:53:03 +0100
From: Benji <me@...ji.com>
To: secn3t@...il.com
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: VPN provider helped track down alleged
	LulzSec member

Yes they do. If you buy a server in America for example, even if you are
located in Russia, they are required by federal law to hand over your
details wherever you may reside. I dont know where you've obtained this idea
that they can't.

Just because something is advertised as 'anonymous' doesnt mean it's 'so
anonymous you can break the law' and anyone using a EU/US-related country to
do this is either stupid or naive.

On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 1:50 PM, xD 0x41 <secn3t@...il.com> wrote:

> They advertised as anonymous VPN to 'everyone'.
> Then, that would mean, especially NOT locally, thats something wich is
> also, subject to federal laws though so, in its own country, the provider
> may have to, nomatter whats advertised, BUT outside of country customers,
> should not be handed over.
> isp's here dont do it, and havent, for like 20 yrs, they also do not take
> down people,issue nor execute other peoples 'takedown orders', there is many
> reasons for this but basically, they loose money from it.
> Anyhow, in UK, you maybe right, but outside of there, then, they should
> have maybe not advertised as anononymous vpn services for everyone and
> anyone. thats obvious crap we know now.
> anyhow, cheers,
> xd
>
>
>
> On 29 September 2011 22:45, Benji <me@...ji.com> wrote:
>
>> Im sorry, why is it 'worrying' that a vpn provider that was a UK business
>> and was located in the UK, is subject to UK law?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Darren Martyn <
>> d.martyn.fulldisclosure@...il.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Again, I hope this does not fail to send.
>>> The reasoning behind the "Pure Elite" recruitment channel was A: to
>>> recruit some talented people (and, by all accounts, there were some talented
>>> programmers there) and B: development and idle talk. Now more interesting
>>> was the reasoning behind the name - by putting the developers and coders and
>>> potential recruits in a channel named "Pure Elite", it was essentially an
>>> ego boost for the new guys, made them feel valued, etc, when in fact most
>>> were but pawns to be used (IMHO).
>>>
>>> This co-operation between VPN providers and LEO, while being nothing new
>>> - remember how hushmail caved in - is indeed worrying for those of us who
>>> are privacy advocates as well as security researchers.
>>>
>>> On a more direct note, Laurelei, do not presume that you know all there
>>> is to know about them. Doing so would be foolish. (Now don't go assuming
>>> that I hate you, I bear you bugger all ill-will, etc).
>>> Good day.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 5:44 AM, Laurelai Storm <laurelai@...echan.org>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Its all good dude. What really concerns me is that vpn providers might
>>>> give over logs to oppressive regemes. TOR is starting to look better and
>>>> better.
>>>> On Sep 27, 2011 11:40 PM, "GloW - XD" <doomxd@...il.com> wrote:
>>>> > never did... was only for one buttcheek kid that i was alittle pissed
>>>> and
>>>> > thinking things wich, prolly were wrong at the time...
>>>> > I am adult enough to apologise for what happened back then, and
>>>> hopefully it
>>>> > is just, cool.
>>>> > :)
>>>> > cheers, your loved by many, you just have many trollers to :sp
>>>> > take care ,
>>>> > xd
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 28 September 2011 14:32, Laurelai Storm <laurelai@...echan.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Im suprised, someone on the internet who *doesn't * hate me :p
>>>> >> On Sep 27, 2011 11:29 PM, "GloW - XD" <doomxd@...il.com> wrote:
>>>> >> > Hello Laurelai ,
>>>> >> > Oh i agree it is still a terrible precedent to be set.. I dont even
>>>> know
>>>> >> > where, legally, i stand anymore...
>>>> >> > It is rather disturbing, nomatter WHO it was laurela.
>>>> >> > I am all for the hatred against the VPN provs, and this is not just
>>>> >> > happening here, and i made a BIG statement about this, and privacy,
>>>> in my
>>>> >> > channel on efnet, first as i saw it.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Then saw a torrentfreak feed,of someone who was an owner of a huge
>>>> >> torrent
>>>> >> > site, was handed to authorities, not by the hoster, no... but by
>>>> the
>>>> >> > frigging payment handler, ie paypal or alertpay most likely.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > This is not good, it makes a grey could now over what is 'anon' and
>>>> what
>>>> >> > isnt. and thats a bad thing for us all.
>>>> >> > To much fraud is causing this, thats plain and simple.Abusing
>>>> places like
>>>> >> > Sony, and, major banks, only make the authorities turn to politics,
>>>> whom
>>>> >> in
>>>> >> > turn can bully with federal and state laws of ANY country, i think
>>>> this
>>>> >> is
>>>> >> > the dangerous part wich is affecting lulzsec members or whoever was
>>>> apart
>>>> >> of
>>>> >> > it, and, i mean efnet is no recruiting grounds for decent hkrs.
>>>> >> > Simple as that, you know it, maybe thru word of mouth ok, but not
>>>> alone
>>>> >> by
>>>> >> > being in channels but that network, is one federal hideout
>>>> now..and, that
>>>> >> is
>>>> >> > every channel, if it is not being spied (yea they have a module
>>>> >> > m_spychannel.c or similar, wich, they actually had without
>>>> realising,
>>>> >> asked
>>>> >> > a friend, to code for them.
>>>> >> > This was rejected by me/her,but i believe they have the module
>>>> running
>>>> >> now.
>>>> >> > So, what was to stop them adding theyre own hidden spy mode to it
>>>> :s look
>>>> >> at
>>>> >> > what they did to my old channel #haqnet, they introduced drinemon
>>>> and a
>>>> >> > bunch of other things, when it could have been simply worked out
>>>> with
>>>> >> > words.. but anyhow, i will not brood on the past, i hope this is
>>>> mutual
>>>> >> > Laurelai, I have nothing bad to say about you, and in turn, expect
>>>> the
>>>> >> same.
>>>> >> > Respect for respect dear.
>>>> >> > I do agree with you about the situation and, as you can see, am not
>>>> >> holding
>>>> >> > 9undisclosed) crappy things wich happened along time ago, over one
>>>> >> idiotic
>>>> >> > kid, on efnet, whom now i know you do not associate with. So, i
>>>> want
>>>> >> that,
>>>> >> > to be laid rest now.. please.
>>>> >> > And, we can only hope that the greater common sense will prevail
>>>> and
>>>> >> > hopefully, places will be forced to proove anonymity in some way,
>>>> wether
>>>> >> > that be by showing people email interaction with requester's of
>>>> peoples
>>>> >> > info, or anything simple even, wich would be then a standard for
>>>> VPN, I
>>>> >> do
>>>> >> > not use them but, if i bought anonymous vpn, id expect exactly
>>>> >> that,without
>>>> >> > political interaction and grey areas about who and what is now
>>>> legal and
>>>> >> not
>>>> >> > legal on the internet, on chatrooms, and on even websites.
>>>> >> > ok, thats plenty, cheers!
>>>> >> > xd
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On 28 September 2011 13:41, Laurelai <laurelai@...echan.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> On 9/27/2011 10:10 PM, sandeep k wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Lolz members was really insane ,i m not why to use that crapy hma.
>>>> >> >> On Sep 27, 2011 8:36 PM, "Ferenc Kovacs" <tyra3l@...il.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> >> > yeah, and usually the same goes for calling others "kids" ;)
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 10:30 PM, GloW - XD <doomxd@...il.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> >> >> #pure-elite , rofl... yes indeed :P
>>>> >> >> >> hehe... nice story tho...funny about the elite channel thing...
>>>> why
>>>> >> do
>>>> >> >> ppl
>>>> >> >> >> tag themselves as elite? usually when they are not...
>>>> >> >> >> ohwell, thats efnut :s (irc sucks)
>>>> >> >> >> xd
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> On 27 September 2011 19:03, Darren Martyn
>>>> >> >> >> <d.martyn.fulldisclosure@...il.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >>> Hope this sends correctly, new email client and all... But
>>>> seeing as
>>>> >> it
>>>> >> >> is
>>>> >> >> >>> an international investigation many people have been bending
>>>> over
>>>> >> >> backwards
>>>> >> >> >>> to assist LEO on this. HMA and perfect privacy were the VPN's
>>>> of
>>>> >> choice
>>>> >> >> for
>>>> >> >> >>> them it would appear, oh, and he was part of the #pure-elite
>>>> channel
>>>> >> on
>>>> >> >> that
>>>> >> >> >>> IRC server, and hence, considered by LEO and others as "Part
>>>> of
>>>> >> >> LulzSec".
>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >>> TL;DR, this is nothing new.
>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Laurelai Storm <
>>>> >> laurelai@...echan.org
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >>> wrote:
>>>> >> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >> >>>> And the guy wasnt even a part of lulzsec
>>>> >> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >> >>>> On Sep 26, 2011 10:37 PM, "Jeffrey Walton" <
>>>> noloader@...il.com>
>>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >> >>>> > On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Ivan . <ivanhec@...il.com
>>>> >
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >> >>>> >>
>>>> >> >> >>>> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.h-online.com/security/news/item/VPN-provider-helped-track-down-alleged-LulzSec-member-1349666.html
>>>> >> >> >>>> > Though HMA claims they complied with a court order, it
>>>> looks as
>>>> >> if
>>>> >> >> >>>> > they facilitated a law enforcement request. The US and the
>>>> FBI
>>>> >> have
>>>> >> >> no
>>>> >> >> >>>> > jurisdiction in the UK.
>>>> >> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >> >>>> > Jeff
>>>> >> >> >>>> >
>>>> >> >> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >> >>>> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>> >> >> >>>> > Charter:
>>>> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>> >> >> >>>> > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>> >> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >> >>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>> >> >> >>>> Charter:
>>>> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>> >> >> >>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >> >>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>> >> >> >>> Charter:
>>>> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>> >> >> >>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>> >> >> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>> >> >> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > --
>>>> >> >> > Ferenc Kovács
>>>> >> >> > @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>> >> >> > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>> >> >> > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>> >> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>> >> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >From my understanding they used the channel as a possible
>>>> recruitment
>>>> >> >> ground, though only 6 people were officially a part of lulzsec , i
>>>> find
>>>> >> it
>>>> >> >> disturbing that law enforcement considers being in an irc channel
>>>> >> tantamount
>>>> >> >> to being a part of lulzsec.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>> >> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>> >> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>
>
>

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