Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 05:33:58 +1000
From: GloW - XD <doomxd@...il.com>
To: Laurelai <laurelai@...echan.org>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: VPN provider helped track down alleged
	LulzSec member

precisely why i did not screrw with peoples things and thx for poiting this
out.

Providers that steal other peoples hacks don't last long in the
underground. People take that personally :)

This is a BIG reason why, i did not, nor my coadmin, touch things, unless we
were invited to, and, never ever did any 'ircd steals' in that way, people
were paying me for a 'shell' , it was what i decided todo, and, then, i did
never even get once, emails from MY providrs, so why should i listen to some
dud who got his box owned and is spewing... it is kinda how i saw things, my
customers owned them, they compained to me, this caused me nothing but,
making a new user dir and, making new box for the user,..... if this stuff
persisted, ie, nonstop compaints, and, uplink complaints would usually
follow, i still would try rehome them on a priv box.
So, i guess nowdays, maybe id not do this, but this was 2008.
xheers.
xd


On 1 October 2011 02:40, Laurelai <laurelai@...echan.org> wrote:

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> On 9/30/2011 9:46 AM, Paul Schmehl wrote:
> > IOW, there is no honor among thieves.
> >
> > This isn't a new concept.
> >
> > --On September 30, 2011 3:31:06 PM +0100 Darren Martyn
> > <d.martyn.fulldisclosure@...il.com> wrote:
> >
> >> By screw you over I did not intend to mean "sell you out". I meant a
> more
> >> criminal fucking over - where they backdoor the box (Hey, physical
> access
> >> and its THEIR server) and steal your criminal assets... i.e. steal, say,
> >> your formgrabber data (and keep it), jack your botnet, etc... SOme of
> >> them guys do just that. The domain "khant.info" used to be a "free
> botnet
> >> service" where one could use Khant's servers to run a botnet. It was
> >> marketed toward script kiddies, and after a few short months he ran off
> >> with their bots and their money :)
> >>
> >> Just an example of how common it is for a "bulletproof host" or such to
> >> fuck you over.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 2:56 PM, xD 0x41 <secn3t@...il.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> User location determines Judicial Jurisdiction - how is that irrelevant?
> >>
> >> it is NOT atall.. he is kidding himself..
> >> I already said just ONE country where i could happily commit crimes, in
> >> the usa or uk from, and thru, panama.
> >> simple as that, they wont execute crap unless you commit fraud etc, on
> >> theyre home.
> >> cheers.
> >> xd
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 29 September 2011 23:54, Louis McCoy <louie@...landlighthouse.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> User location determines Judicial Jurisdiction - how is that irrelevant?
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9/29/2011 9:27 AM, Benji wrote:
> >>
> >> No, you are wrong.
> >>
> >>
> >> Either; the vpn provider complied with court order, or they face the
> >> legal ramifications of not doing so. User location is irrelevant.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 2:04 PM, xD 0x41 <secn3t@...il.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> indeed :)
> >> but, it is how a proper anon person would operate, well, tht is how i
> >> once did...
> >> anyhow, it is to broad, and, yes, i qwould never believe in bulletproof,
> >> unless i have used it maybe, for 10yrs, thru 10 botnets ;P wich, is very
> >> rare but funnily, possible.
> >> webhosters, are even more corrupt and better at hiding data.. face it,
> >> if the vpn provider had not shat themself, then it would be a non story.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 29 September 2011 23:00, Benji <me@...ji.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> 'Abuse' emails and court orders are very different.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 1:59 PM, xD 0x41 <secn3t@...il.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> err, you are limited in those countries dude... id really checkup on
> that
> >> ... maybe some but, yea i agree, i dont think any hosting is anon, but,
> i
> >> sure know i have kept an anon dedis in past, and was VERY easy to avoid
> >> handing anything over. Unless they had personally seized from my
> company,
> >> i was allowed to basically get away with, and if i want to, again, could
> >> do the same 'anonymously' and, indeed keep those details, away.
> >> it is not frigin hard dude, where did Yyou get the idea, that is not
> >> hard to move a user around boxes :P
> >> and rename them, etc etc etc, always change ipv6 tunnels... there is
> >> somany ways, you obv have not ran a dedicated server in a company
> >> environment coz boi, they hide nets on legit hostin now, legit
> >> apparently* companies...and they do it using those simple means, and,
> >> even show logs of them 'removing and deleting' files of the apprent 'bad
> >> user' , this is, a whole different level than even needing to deal with
> >> cops.. so, you are scared too much by laws wich can be smokescreened.
> >> Run a dedis, or simply ask a admin, howmany abuse they get, and howmany
> >> users they actually rm ;)
> >> you would want this service, on your vps ?
> >> i surely wouldnt,. i know, with me, if i offer anon, you stay damn anon,
> >> if you bring cops to MY HOUSE, then i may have to try and, simply keep
> my
> >> darn data secure ey ?
> >> how about that ?
> >> simple methods, defeat simple plans benji.
> >> xd
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 29 September 2011 22:53, Benji <me@...ji.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes they do. If you buy a server in America for example, even if you are
> >> located in Russia, they are required by federal law to hand over your
> >> details wherever you may reside. I dont know where you've obtained this
> >> idea that they can't.
> >>
> >>
> >> Just because something is advertised as 'anonymous' doesnt mean it's 'so
> >> anonymous you can break the law' and anyone using a EU/US-related
> country
> >> to do this is either stupid or naive.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 1:50 PM, xD 0x41 <secn3t@...il.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> They advertised as anonymous VPN to 'everyone'.
> >> Then, that would mean, especially NOT locally, thats something wich is
> >> also, subject to federal laws though so, in its own country, the
> provider
> >> may have to, nomatter whats advertised, BUT outside of country
> customers,
> >> should not be handed over.
> >> isp's here dont do it, and havent, for like 20 yrs, they also do not
> >> take down people,issue nor execute other peoples 'takedown orders',
> there
> >> is many reasons for this but basically, they loose money from it.
> >> Anyhow, in UK, you maybe right, but outside of there, then, they should
> >> have maybe not advertised as anononymous vpn services for everyone and
> >> anyone. thats obvious crap we know now.
> >> anyhow, cheers,
> >> xd
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 29 September 2011 22:45, Benji <me@...ji.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Im sorry, why is it 'worrying' that a vpn provider that was a UK
> business
> >> and was located in the UK, is subject to UK law?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Darren Martyn
> >> <d.martyn.fulldisclosure@...il.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Again, I hope this does not fail to send.
> >> The reasoning behind the "Pure Elite" recruitment channel was A: to
> >> recruit some talented people (and, by all accounts, there were some
> >> talented programmers there) and B: development and idle talk. Now more
> >> interesting was the reasoning behind the name - by putting the
> developers
> >> and coders and potential recruits in a channel named "Pure Elite", it
> was
> >> essentially an ego boost for the new guys, made them feel valued, etc,
> >> when in fact most were but pawns to be used (IMHO).
> >>
> >> This co-operation between VPN providers and LEO, while being nothing new
> >> - remember how hushmail caved in - is indeed worrying for those of us
> who
> >> are privacy advocates as well as security researchers.
> >>
> >> On a more direct note, Laurelei, do not presume that you know all there
> >> is to know about them. Doing so would be foolish. (Now don't go assuming
> >> that I hate you, I bear you bugger all ill-will, etc).
> >> Good day.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 5:44 AM, Laurelai Storm <laurelai@...echan.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Its all good dude. What really concerns me is that vpn providers might
> >> give over logs to oppressive regemes. TOR is starting to look better and
> >> better.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sep 27, 2011 11:40 PM, "GloW - XD" <doomxd@...il.com> wrote:
> >> > never did... was only for one buttcheek kid that i was alittle pissed
> >> and
> >> > thinking things wich, prolly were wrong at the time...
> >> > I am adult enough to apologise for what happened back then, and
> >> hopefully it
> >> > is just, cool.
> >> > :)
> >> > cheers, your loved by many, you just have many trollers to :sp
> >> > take care ,
> >> > xd
> >> >
> >>>
> >>> On 28 September 2011 14:32, Laurelai Storm <laurelai@...echan.org>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >>>> Im suprised, someone on the internet who *doesn't * hate me :p
> >> >> On Sep 27, 2011 11:29 PM, "GloW - XD" <doomxd@...il.com> wrote:
> >> >> > Hello Laurelai ,
> >> >> > Oh i agree it is still a terrible precedent to be set.. I dont even
> >> know
> >> >> > where, legally, i stand anymore...
> >> >> > It is rather disturbing, nomatter WHO it was laurela.
> >> >> > I am all for the hatred against the VPN provs, and this is not just
> >> >> > happening here, and i made a BIG statement about this, and privacy,
> >> in my
> >> >> > channel on efnet, first as i saw it.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Then saw a torrentfreak feed,of someone who was an owner of a huge
> >> >> torrent
> >> >> > site, was handed to authorities, not by the hoster, no... but by
> the
> >> >> > frigging payment handler, ie paypal or alertpay most likely.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > This is not good, it makes a grey could now over what is 'anon' and
> >> what
> >> >> > isnt. and thats a bad thing for us all.
> >> >> > To much fraud is causing this, thats plain and simple.Abusing
> >> places like
> >> >> > Sony, and, major banks, only make the authorities turn to politics,
> >> whom
> >> >> in
> >> >> > turn can bully with federal and state laws of ANY country, i think
> >> this
> >> >> is
> >> >> > the dangerous part wich is affecting lulzsec members or whoever was
> >> apart
> >> >> of
> >> >> > it, and, i mean efnet is no recruiting grounds for decent hkrs.
> >> >> > Simple as that, you know it, maybe thru word of mouth ok, but not
> >> alone
> >> >> by
> >> >> > being in channels but that network, is one federal hideout
> >> now..and, that
> >> >> is
> >> >> > every channel, if it is not being spied (yea they have a module
> >> >> > m_spychannel.c or similar, wich, they actually had without
> >> realising,
> >> >> asked
> >> >> > a friend, to code for them.
> >> >> > This was rejected by me/her,but i believe they have the module
> >> running
> >> >> now.
> >> >> > So, what was to stop them adding theyre own hidden spy mode to it
> >> :s look
> >> >> at
> >> >> > what they did to my old channel #haqnet, they introduced drinemon
> >> and a
> >> >> > bunch of other things, when it could have been simply worked out
> >> with
> >> >> > words.. but anyhow, i will not brood on the past, i hope this is
> >> mutual
> >> >> > Laurelai, I have nothing bad to say about you, and in turn, expect
> >> the
> >> >> same.
> >> >> > Respect for respect dear.
> >> >> > I do agree with you about the situation and, as you can see, am not
> >> >> holding
> >> >> > 9undisclosed) crappy things wich happened along time ago, over one
> >> >> idiotic
> >> >> > kid, on efnet, whom now i know you do not associate with. So, i
> want
> >> >> that,
> >> >> > to be laid rest now.. please.
> >> >> > And, we can only hope that the greater common sense will prevail
> and
> >> >> > hopefully, places will be forced to proove anonymity in some way,
> >> wether
> >> >> > that be by showing people email interaction with requester's of
> >> peoples
> >> >> > info, or anything simple even, wich would be then a standard for
> >> VPN, I
> >> >> do
> >> >> > not use them but, if i bought anonymous vpn, id expect exactly
> >> >> that,without
> >> >> > political interaction and grey areas about who and what is now
> >> legal and
> >> >> not
> >> >> > legal on the internet, on chatrooms, and on even websites.
> >> >> > ok, thats plenty, cheers!
> >> >> > xd
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On 28 September 2011 13:41, Laurelai <laurelai@...echan.org>
> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On 9/27/2011 10:10 PM, sandeep k wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Lolz members was really insane ,i m not why to use that crapy hma.
> >> >> >> On Sep 27, 2011 8:36 PM, "Ferenc Kovacs" <tyra3l@...il.com>
> wrote:
> >> >> >> > yeah, and usually the same goes for calling others "kids" ;)
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 10:30 PM, GloW - XD <doomxd@...il.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> #pure-elite , rofl... yes indeed :P
> >> >> >> >> hehe... nice story tho...funny about the elite channel thing...
> >> why
> >> >> do
> >> >> >> ppl
> >> >> >> >> tag themselves as elite? usually when they are not...
> >> >> >> >> ohwell, thats efnut :s (irc sucks)
> >> >> >> >> xd
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> On 27 September 2011 19:03, Darren Martyn
> >> >> >> >> <d.martyn.fulldisclosure@...il.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Hope this sends correctly, new email client and all... But
> >> seeing as
> >> >> it
> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> >>> an international investigation many people have been bending
> >> over
> >> >> >> backwards
> >> >> >> >>> to assist LEO on this. HMA and perfect privacy were the VPN's
> >> of
> >> >> choice
> >> >> >> for
> >> >> >> >>> them it would appear, oh, and he was part of the #pure-elite
> >> channel
> >> >> on
> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> >>> IRC server, and hence, considered by LEO and others as "Part
> of
> >> >> >> LulzSec".
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> TL;DR, this is nothing new.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Laurelai Storm <
> >> >> laurelai@...echan.org
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> And the guy wasnt even a part of lulzsec
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> On Sep 26, 2011 10:37 PM, "Jeffrey Walton"
> >> <noloader@...il.com>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>> > On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Ivan . <ivanhec@...il.com
> >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>> >>
> >> >> >> >>>> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> http://www.h-online.com/security/news/item/VPN-provider-helped-track-down
> >> -alleged-LulzSec-member-1349666.html
> >> >> >> >>>> > Though HMA claims they complied with a court order, it
> >> looks as
> >> >> if
> >> >> >> >>>> > they facilitated a law enforcement request. The US and the
> >> FBI
> >> >> have
> >> >> >> no
> >> >> >> >>>> > jurisdiction in the UK.
> >> >> >> >>>> >
> >> >> >> >>>> > Jeff
> >> >> >> >>>> >
> >> >> >> >>>> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> >>>> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >> >> >> >>>> > Charter:
> >> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >> >> >> >>>> > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> >>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >> >> >> >>>> Charter:
> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >> >> >> >>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> >>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >> >> >> >>> Charter:
> http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >> >> >> >>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >> >> >> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >> >> >> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > --
> >> >> >> > Ferenc Kovács
> >> >> >> > @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >> >> >> > Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >> >> >> > Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >> >> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >> >> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >From my understanding they used the channel as a possible
> >> recruitment
> >> >> >> ground, though only 6 people were officially a part of lulzsec , i
> >> find
> >> >> it
> >> >> >> disturbing that law enforcement considers being in an irc channel
> >> >> tantamount
> >> >> >> to being a part of lulzsec.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >> >> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >> >> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> Providers that steal other peoples hacks don't last long in the
> underground. People take that personally :)
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/

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