Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 22:51:26 +1100
From: xD 0x41 <secn3t@...il.com>
To: Darren Martyn <d.martyn.fulldisclosure@...il.com>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: VPN providers and any providers in general...

Well, statistics show that most crime is done on some form of drug, and drug
addiction is probably about 90% of most major crime evens, so, i think this
gives people of the IT nature, a much higher chance, staitstically speaking,
it would be of more benfit to simply rehab them, rather than make them a
possible statistic of the 'rotation' count most harder crims have.
ok,. im out!
xd


On 3 October 2011 22:38, Darren Martyn <d.martyn.fulldisclosure@...il.com>wrote:

> Well, thanks for the logical response :)
>
> Many people want these "evil hackers" locked up and such, but doing so will
> only achieve the folowing (in my opinion):
> A: Cost money.
> B: Turn them into a more hardened criminal.
> C: Cost the community a useful person who could be beneficial to them.
>
> Consider that Davis is 18, Cleary only 19, and other people arrested are
> about the same age. What the law enforcement and judicial bodies dealing
> with them must realize is that they are dealing with intelligent young
> people, who simply chose the wrong path. What they need is not a prison
> stay, but some rehabilitative treatment, perhaps councilling to help them
> find the right path, and a better sense of morality.
>
> Hell, in some cases the mere arrest itself scared people straight. Having a
> bloody SWAT team blow the bloody doors off is enough to reangline* most
> young mens moral compass!
>
> Of course, jailing them can be used to "send a message" that "this is not
> acceptable" and such, but that has *less* merit than *using* them for good.
> All one does by sending a message is make those still out there feel more
> persecuted, and persecuted people lash out, doing more damage, and the cycle
> continues.
>
> *This computers spellcheck is not working, it wants to use Cyrillic!
>
> On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 12:28 PM, xD 0x41 <secn3t@...il.com> wrote:
>
>> Ok.. my final posts on this matter i think... and opinons,
>>
>>
>> (No, seriously, I wonder what your opinions are on rehabilitative rather
>> than punitative measures to be taken against criminal hackers, assuming
>> fraud was *not* involved, and what benefit they can be to the community and
>> whether it outweighs the negative effects of not making examples of them).
>>
>> It does outweigh, for, each time a perso is jailed it costs you, me, and
>> anyone wh works, money.
>> We can re3duce the harm, by education and counselling. Especially forced
>> hours per-week basis, of counselling with a qualified psych, possibly before
>> release even better.
>> I think the IQ level is higher, therfore, there is a 'smarter' chance of
>> it happening, asmuch as theyre hacking, theyre also gaining tremendus
>> knoledge, many do go into IT sec, we just cannot see those cases really..and
>> when we do, theyre usually yrs after the thing has happened, but, i could
>> think of a few EU based guys who are hapily workin for huge co's, making
>> massive cash, evven maker of Morphine, HolyFather, admittedly went into Av,
>> and made rootkits for years.
>> So, for sure, why put them in jail, it is just going to 'harden' , like
>> anyone will when ones back is up against the wall, as it will be in jail
>> ofc.
>> I think rehab, rather than retalliate.
>>
>> Bedtme here for me :)
>> I enjoy your posts, and i think the whole topic has much merit in these
>> lists, other than just about a cpl of websites, pople forget that it is
>> still about, the freedom to even, do a simple pentest , really thats the
>> crux of it.
>>
>> So, i think,some method used by psychology, could very easily work,
>> especially because, these guys are usually VERY smart, and, the can still be
>> 'saved' unlike some hardened armed-robber/burglar...
>> The chance of rehab, is specially high because of the intellectual
>> platform it takes  just to be at a simple or mediate level of the scale, in
>> terms of 'hacking' in hgeneral.
>> cheers,
>> xd
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3 October 2011 22:17, Darren Martyn <d.martyn.fulldisclosure@...il.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the input, I will be putting this as a debate soon for thew
>>> Law Society in the Uni I attend, to see what the legal guys think.
>>>
>>> The issue in the example is not fraud, but damage done to the servers
>>> (lets assume root/deface) and perhaps leaking of stolen data - the case I am
>>> using as an example would be, for example, the "LulzSec" breaches. How hard
>>> would they get f*cked on an international scale if arrested? How many
>>> countries will try extradite them?
>>>
>>> In my opinion, they should be simply charged, tried and convicted in
>>> their country of residence and be done with it - there is no benefit to
>>> society as a whole to be gained from hanging them three or four times a
>>> piece, as I reckon given a good shock and such, they come out with a
>>> newfound respect for authority and may even be of some benefit to the
>>> security community and the community as a whole. Locking them up merely
>>> turns them further toward criminal lives - and remember, all hackers *have*
>>> potential to do good as well as evil, it is just a matter of their choice.
>>> Given a *shove* toward the right decision is more beneficial in the end.
>>>
>>> "Discuss"...
>>>
>>> (No, seriously, I wonder what your opinions are on rehabilitative rather
>>> than punitative measures to be taken against criminal hackers, assuming
>>> fraud was *not* involved, and what benefit they can be to the community and
>>> whether it outweighs the negative effects of not making examples of them).
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 9:34 AM, xD 0x41 <secn3t@...il.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Could just lok at the recent david cecil case here in .au.
>>>> It does say alot, because he did breach some bigger networks.. and he
>>>> was committing 'smaller' scale fraud but, still fraud, however, his main
>>>> problem was what he did to a governemnt site, wich was deface it for
>>>> personal gain, not profit.
>>>> It is the latest case wich would be valid of this.
>>>> still.. intresting infos... good stuff.
>>>> xd
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3 October 2011 19:16, Darren Martyn <
>>>> d.martyn.fulldisclosure@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Going back to my own example, say all three are first world countries,
>>>>> and A and C are in the EU whilst B is the US. All nations involved have good
>>>>> diplomatic relations and preexisting extradition treaties, and to add
>>>>> interest to it, lets say the LEO in B and C helped the investigation. The
>>>>> criomes would be non-financial, but say, large scale hacks and such. I will
>>>>> use Jake Davis's case as a "canary case" for this though...
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 12:31 AM, xD 0x41 <secn3t@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, the legend of the mailing-list himself, has spoken.
>>>>>> not knowing you, for all i have seen, your a pathetic sack of rubbish,
>>>>>> and really, what we are discussing, if you had ANY clue, wich obv dont, is
>>>>>> simply how far our own freedom is going.
>>>>>> You are an idiot.
>>>>>> Have a nice day.
>>>>>> xd
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2 October 2011 08:45, andrew.wallace <
>>>>>> andrew.wallace@...ketmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 5:50 AM,  <Valdis.Kletnieks@...edu> wrote:
>>>>>>> > On Sat, 01 Oct 2011 09:16:11 +1000, xD 0x41 said:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >> As you also said, murder is a no brainer in any place...well,
>>>>>>> maybe not iraq
>>>>>>> >> or afghanistan just yet :P lol..
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Iraq, for all its problems, is still a place with a somewhat
>>>>>>> functional
>>>>>>> > judicial system. The court system may be broken, but you in general
>>>>>>> *will* at
>>>>>>> > least appear in a courtroom with a judge and be pronounced guilty
>>>>>>> before you're
>>>>>>> > punished.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I was actually thinking more along the lines of  totally failed
>>>>>>> states such as
>>>>>>> > Somalia, Sudan, or the contested parts of Afghanistan, where you
>>>>>>> can't be tried
>>>>>>> > for murder because there isn't a court to try you *in*.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you not grown old of talking to children on mailing lists?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andrew Wallace
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Independent consultant
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> www.n3td3v.org.uk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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