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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:12:06 -0400
From: "Mikhail A. Utin" <mutin@...monwealthcare.org>
To: "full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk" <full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 80, Issue 54
List'
Sorry for taking a role of "moderator".
Pretty often we see discussions around politics on this list. It seems to me that it is natural. It reflects that we are the people and have certain concerns which live in us together with professional stuff. We cannot avoid outbreaks of such discussions. This list is a part of our life though.
Suggestion: assign one day of a week to "release steam" and talk whatever we want to. "Purists" can just ignore discussions on that day.
And as usually: "you are right, and you are right too".
Cheers and be patient.
Mikhail A. Utin, CISSP
-----Original Message-----
From: full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk [mailto:full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk] On Behalf Of full-disclosure-request@...ts.grok.org.uk
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 1:05 AM
To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Full-Disclosure Digest, Vol 80, Issue 54
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: [OT] Obama said: "American people understand that not
everybody's been following the rules" (Ivan .)
2. Re: [OT] Obama said: "American people understand that not
everybody's been following the rules" (Ivan .)
3. Re: [OT] Obama said: "American people understand that not
everybody's been following the rules" (Valdis.Kletnieks@...edu)
4. Re: [OT] Obama said: "American people understand that not
everybody's been following the rules" (Jeffrey Walton)
5. Re: [OT] the nigger said: "American people understand that
not everybody's been following the rules" (Ivan .)
6. Re: Search and Seizure of Email (?????)
7. Cost of Hacks? (gillis jones)
8. Re: Cost of Hacks? (Jeffrey Walton)
9. Re: [OT] Obama said: "American people understand that not
everybody's been following the rules" (?????)
10. Re: [OT] Obama said: "American people understand that not
everybody's been following the rules" (Ivan .)
11. Re: Snail mail vs. Email (Laurelai)
12. Re: [OT] the nigger said: "American people understand that
not everybody's been following the rules" (Jeffrey Walton)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:29:38 +1100
From: "Ivan ." <ivanhec@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] [OT] Obama said: "American people
understand that not everybody's been following the rules"
To: David Alanis <canito@...an.us>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Message-ID:
<CAKLh_qz4cgavd1pHqx5kNUH3+OB3fRX4VwtQfZ=7iCuimR-h1Q@...l.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/fast-and-furious-22-shocking-facts-about-the-scandal-that-could-bring-down-the-obama-administration
On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:33 AM, David Alanis <canito@...an.us> wrote:
> Quoting Paul Schmehl <pschmehl_lists@...rr.com>:
>
> > The thing these stupid people don't seem to get is that millionaires
> > and billionaires are the only ones that can afford to move elsewhere.
>
> You're an idiot.
>
> If you think that Obama is a Muslim, that Obama care will bring upon
> death panels, that Obama is a socialist, and that all millionaires and
> billionaires (including Thor), will move out just because they're
> called upon to pay more taxes and help America out of debt, you're an
> idiot.
>
> Please don't call me *stupid* just because you disagree with me
> politically.
>
> If you're not a millionaire or billionaire, how *would you know* that
> the 1% are packing getting ready to move?
>
> Did you pick this up from Fox News?
>
> (I won't respond to any of your response, I am done with this silly
> thread)
>
> > Tax them enough and they'll simply move to another country. That's
> > already what's happening with corporations and with some individuals.
> > As their tax load increases, the incentive to simply move gets
> > greater and greater until one day they do. Then their tax load goes
> > to zero and the money is gone forever.
> >
> > We've already seen these within the US, where millionaires are
> > leaving CA and NY for greener pastures. If they leave the US
> > entirely, they won't be back. Then who will the government get the money from?
> >
> > --On October 12, 2011 8:31:34 PM +0000 "Thor (Hammer of God)"
> > <thor@...merofgod.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Well, you said "nor do I care" so I too am confused. However, since
> you
> >> did ask, there is an important aspect to your retort that you seem
> >> ok with dancing over, and that is the fact the "taxing millionaires and
> >> billionaires" would be *additional* taxes. Mine won't go down, and in
> >> fact, will probably go up. And I guarantee, without question and as
> >> definitely as the sun will rise tomorrow, when whatever "x"
> >> population
> is
> >> taxed more, and whatever "resolution" these people think will come
> >> from all of this noise, that they will CONTINUE to bitch and moan
> >> when other people have more than they do.
> >>
> >> The premise of "I am the 99%" or your use of "average" is specious.
> >> Average what? Income? No, that can't be it. Education? No, that's
> >> clearly not it. Average tax payer? Certainly not. "Average" person
> >> bitching about how they don't have what they want and think it
> >> should magically be given to them? Well, that's more like it, isn't it?
> >>
> >> The entire movement is a waste of time, and the "let them eat cake-ers"
> >> will find that out, as they always do, when they become the ones
> >> that have to start baking.
> >>
> >> The reason I posted the link is because it's freaking FUNNY to call
> >> out the ME-TOO'S! Now if you'll excuse me, I must get back to my
> >> job so
> that
> >> I can try to afford the taxes taken out.
> >>
> >> t
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk [mailto:
> full-disclosure-
> >>> bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk] On Behalf Of David Alanis
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 12:19 PM
> >>> To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
> >>> Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] [OT] Obama said: "American people
> >>> understand that not everybody's been following the rules"
> >>>
> >>> Quoting "Thor (Hammer of God)" <thor@...merofgod.com>:
> >>>
> >>>> No, it goes to show you how much most of the people bitching
> >>>> about all of this are full of shit, as per the oldie but goodie
> >>>> "Holiday in Cambodia" by the Dead Kennedy's.
> >>>>
> >>>> The people who REALLY need help are not the ones sitting around
> >>>> all day posting shite on the internet.
> >>>
> >>> I don't know where you're getting at or what political stance you
> >>> take nor do I care.
> >>>
> >>> If you don't think the people who are protesting against the greed
> >>> of wall street are average Americans, then you need help.
> >>>
> >>> Tell us then, since you cared enough to post a link trying to
> >>> discredit the anti- wall-street movement based on exifs. Who are
> >>> the people who need the help?
> >>>
> >>> Corporations? Cause I've heard opposing arguments by *average*
> >>> Americans that corporations are people.
> >>>
> >>> Last time I checked, Obama's Job Act gives even more tax breaks to
> >>> companies and extends unemployment benefits to *Americans* with
> >>> out jobs by taxing millionaires and billionaires.
> >>>
> >>> You have me confused.
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk
> >>>>> [mailto:full-disclosure- bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk] On Behalf Of
> >>>>> David Alanis
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 10:21 AM
> >>>>> To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] [OT] Obama said: "American people
> >>>>> understand that not everybody's been following the rules"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Quoting "Thor (Hammer of God)" <thor@...merofgod.com>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > I saw this on FB and thought I would pass it along:
> >>>>> > http://99percentexif.tumblr.com/
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > It's the exif data from the photos the 99%'ers are posting -
> >>>>> > showing the $1000 systems, cameras, and software they are
> >>>>> > using to
> >>> post.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > t
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To me this goes to show right wing absurdity and the length they
> >>>>> go feed propaganda to the Fox News sheeople/believers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What is the logic of the tumbler page anyway!?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you protest against rich filthy thieves you mustn't own a
> >>>>> semi decent camera?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Its not a right but a privilege to own a nice camera, now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul Schmehl, Senior Infosec Analyst As if it wasn't already
> > obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer.
> > *******************************************
> > "It is as useless to argue with those who have renounced the use of
> > reason as to administer medication to the dead." Thomas Jefferson
> > "There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person
> > could believe in them." George Orwell
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:47:49 +1100
From: "Ivan ." <ivanhec@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] [OT] Obama said: "American people
understand that not everybody's been following the rules"
To: David Alanis <canito@...an.us>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Message-ID:
<CAKLh_qy5BvrHSVyVQ=u5SJOnm+AMkNy_tH6NsTUbJuYECgzvDg@...l.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1
On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:29 AM, Ivan . <ivanhec@...il.com> wrote:
>
> http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/fast-and-furious-22-shocking
> -facts-about-the-scandal-that-could-bring-down-the-obama-administratio
> n
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:33 AM, David Alanis <canito@...an.us> wrote:
>
>> Quoting Paul Schmehl <pschmehl_lists@...rr.com>:
>>
>> > The thing these stupid people don't seem to get is that
>> > millionaires and billionaires are the only ones that can afford to move elsewhere.
>>
>> You're an idiot.
>>
>> If you think that Obama is a Muslim, that Obama care will bring upon
>> death panels, that Obama is a socialist, and that all millionaires
>> and billionaires (including Thor), will move out just because they're
>> called upon to pay more taxes and help America out of debt, you're an
>> idiot.
>>
>> Please don't call me *stupid* just because you disagree with me
>> politically.
>>
>> If you're not a millionaire or billionaire, how *would you know* that
>> the 1% are packing getting ready to move?
>>
>> Did you pick this up from Fox News?
>>
>> (I won't respond to any of your response, I am done with this silly
>> thread)
>>
>> > Tax them enough and they'll simply move to another country. That's
>> > already what's happening with corporations and with some individuals.
>> > As their tax load increases, the incentive to simply move gets
>> > greater and greater until one day they do. Then their tax load
>> > goes to zero and the money is gone forever.
>> >
>> > We've already seen these within the US, where millionaires are
>> > leaving CA and NY for greener pastures. If they leave the US
>> > entirely, they won't be back. Then who will the government get the money from?
>> >
>> > --On October 12, 2011 8:31:34 PM +0000 "Thor (Hammer of God)"
>> > <thor@...merofgod.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Well, you said "nor do I care" so I too am confused. However, since
>> you
>> >> did ask, there is an important aspect to your retort that you seem
>> >> ok with dancing over, and that is the fact the "taxing millionaires and
>> >> billionaires" would be *additional* taxes. Mine won't go down, and in
>> >> fact, will probably go up. And I guarantee, without question and as
>> >> definitely as the sun will rise tomorrow, when whatever "x"
>> >> population
>> is
>> >> taxed more, and whatever "resolution" these people think will come
>> >> from all of this noise, that they will CONTINUE to bitch and moan
>> >> when other people have more than they do.
>> >>
>> >> The premise of "I am the 99%" or your use of "average" is specious.
>> >> Average what? Income? No, that can't be it. Education? No, that's
>> >> clearly not it. Average tax payer? Certainly not. "Average" person
>> >> bitching about how they don't have what they want and think it
>> >> should magically be given to them? Well, that's more like it, isn't it?
>> >>
>> >> The entire movement is a waste of time, and the "let them eat cake-ers"
>> >> will find that out, as they always do, when they become the ones
>> >> that have to start baking.
>> >>
>> >> The reason I posted the link is because it's freaking FUNNY to
>> >> call out the ME-TOO'S! Now if you'll excuse me, I must get back
>> >> to my job so
>> that
>> >> I can try to afford the taxes taken out.
>> >>
>> >> t
>> >>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk [mailto:
>> full-disclosure-
>> >>> bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk] On Behalf Of David Alanis
>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 12:19 PM
>> >>> To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] [OT] Obama said: "American people
>> >>> understand that not everybody's been following the rules"
>> >>>
>> >>> Quoting "Thor (Hammer of God)" <thor@...merofgod.com>:
>> >>>
>> >>>> No, it goes to show you how much most of the people bitching
>> >>>> about all of this are full of shit, as per the oldie but goodie
>> >>>> "Holiday in Cambodia" by the Dead Kennedy's.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The people who REALLY need help are not the ones sitting around
>> >>>> all day posting shite on the internet.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't know where you're getting at or what political stance you
>> >>> take nor do I care.
>> >>>
>> >>> If you don't think the people who are protesting against the
>> >>> greed of wall street are average Americans, then you need help.
>> >>>
>> >>> Tell us then, since you cared enough to post a link trying to
>> discredit
>> >>> the anti- wall-street movement based on exifs. Who are the people
>> >>> who need the help?
>> >>>
>> >>> Corporations? Cause I've heard opposing arguments by *average*
>> >>> Americans that corporations are people.
>> >>>
>> >>> Last time I checked, Obama's Job Act gives even more tax breaks
>> >>> to companies and extends unemployment benefits to *Americans*
>> >>> with out jobs by taxing millionaires and billionaires.
>> >>>
>> >>> You have me confused.
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>> From: full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk
>> >>>>> [mailto:full-disclosure- bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk] On Behalf
>> >>>>> Of David Alanis
>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 10:21 AM
>> >>>>> To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] [OT] Obama said: "American
>> >>>>> people understand that not everybody's been following the rules"
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Quoting "Thor (Hammer of God)" <thor@...merofgod.com>:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> > I saw this on FB and thought I would pass it along:
>> >>>>> > http://99percentexif.tumblr.com/
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > It's the exif data from the photos the 99%'ers are posting -
>> >>>>> > showing the $1000 systems, cameras, and software they are
>> >>>>> > using to
>> >>> post.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > t
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> To me this goes to show right wing absurdity and the length
>> >>>>> they go feed propaganda to the Fox News sheeople/believers.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> What is the logic of the tumbler page anyway!?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If you protest against rich filthy thieves you mustn't own a
>> >>>>> semi decent camera?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Its not a right but a privilege to own a nice camera, now.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>> - This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging
>> >>>>> Program.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>> >>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>> >>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>> >>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>> >>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>> >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>> >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul Schmehl, Senior Infosec Analyst As if it wasn't already
>> > obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer.
>> > *******************************************
>> > "It is as useless to argue with those who have renounced the use of
>> > reason as to administer medication to the dead." Thomas Jefferson
>> > "There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person
>> > could believe in them." George Orwell
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>
>
>
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:49:32 -0400
From: Valdis.Kletnieks@...edu
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] [OT] Obama said: "American people
understand that not everybody's been following the rules"
To: "Thor (Hammer of God)" <thor@...merofgod.com>
Cc: "full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk"
<full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>
Message-ID: <48694.1318448972@...ing-police.cc.vt.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:52:09 -0000, "Thor (Hammer of God)" said:
> I know that if I was starving to death and couldn't afford medical
> care
I know that maybe the time to be protesting isn't once you're already starving, but when the near-term outlook includes "possibly starving" as one of the possible outcomes if things don't change.
Just sayin'.
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:53:11 -0400
From: Jeffrey Walton <noloader@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] [OT] Obama said: "American people
understand that not everybody's been following the rules"
To: "Ivan ." <ivanhec@...il.com>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Message-ID:
<CAH8yC8=ieWbgnN8OJxeMN8ACaHT_81E=H6va1MUofCFAZsT89w@...l.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:47 PM, Ivan . <ivanhec@...il.com> wrote:
> http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angr
> y-about-2011-10?op=1
>
Very nice.
All the pictures make it very easy to take in quickly. It should help those who don't want to take a detailed look at the issues. If I could only get it on my etch-a-sketch....
Jeff
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:12:49 +1100
From: "Ivan ." <ivanhec@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] [OT] the nigger said: "American people
understand that not everybody's been following the rules"
To: Christian Sciberras <uuf6429@...il.com>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Message-ID:
<CAKLh_qxfKpJyMnK=V+sR3ja1VD_k-f6rih3zCDV-qqKWspYG6A@...l.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Welcome to Ameristan
majority of street lights have been removed from one Michigan city that was having trouble paying its electricity bill http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/majority-of-street-lights-have-been-removed-from-one-michigan-cit
Colorado empties popular lake to pay its water bill http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8816656/Colorado-empties-popular-lake-to-pay-its-water-bill.html
and so on. Your tax $$$ go to bailouts
On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:20 AM, Ivan . <ivanhec@...il.com> wrote:
> fast and furious
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC2C2lIwNSA
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 5:51 PM, Christian Sciberras <uuf6429@...il.com>wrote:
>
>> Darren's and indeed many other people's lame excuse is that they're
>> too humble to be greedy. As if!
>> If anything, most people are greedier than that 1%. The only
>> difference is that people are bad at it, unlike that 1%.
>>
>> Just consider the fact that Average Joe would be just too happy to
>> evade tax.
>> Richer Joe, instead, might be doing the same with his $1bn business.
>> In both cases, they're breaking the law.
>>
>> The "occupy wallstreet" movement is simply hypocrisy.
>>
>> Did I happen to mention that I'm far from rich? In the coming years,
>> I'll be struggling to get my own drop of land.
>> The only unfair part I see is people complaining while buying iPads
>> and iCrap over Facebook, Twitter etc..
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 6:07 PM, Jeffrey Walton <noloader@...il.com>wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Darren Martyn
>>> <d.martyn.fulldisclosure@...il.com> wrote:
>>> > Chris - Empathy, guilt, and morals. Guilt being a major factor.
>>> > The possibility was always there to make millions via evil means,
>>> > but
>>> morals and
>>> > knowing it would be hard to live with.
>>> >
>>> > The problem is not getting lots of money. That is the easy part.
>>> > The
>>> issue
>>> > is with living with yourself afterward.
>>> How about illegal? Check out the Hobbs Act [1]. I'm not making this
>>> crap up - the US has laws on the books for negatively affecting
>>> commerce (which the crash did), and using fear to peddle their warez
>>> (how financial institutions market their instruments). There's
>>> probably provisions in the PATRIOT Act, too.
>>>
>>> The last tine I checked (about a year ago), the SEC had opened fewer
>>> than 100 civil investigations. No criminal investigations, despite
>>> the fact that some of the financial institutions created spurious
>>> ratings companies just to rate their instruments 'good'.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/131m
>>> crm.htm
>>>
>>> > On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Bob Dobbs <bobd10937@...il.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Jeffrey Walton
>>> >> <noloader@...il.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Who are the real threats to the US: terrorist who try to dream
>>> >>> up
>>> ways
>>> >>> to do the US harm, or Corporate and Congress which does the US harm?
>>> >>
>>> >> I hate to contribute to an off-topic thread but you've
>>> >> successfully trolled me here: Congress has done FAR more harm to
>>> >> the US than
>>> terrorists
>>> >> over the last 10 years by just about every measure.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>>
>
>
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:38:53 +0900
From: ????? <supergiantpotato@...oo.co.jp>
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Search and Seizure of Email
To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Message-ID: <4E96331D.5060305@...oo.co.jp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Nicely put.
Too bad folks in the other OT thread on this list (and around the world) don't feel the same way about economics -- and other things, like healthcare, for that matter...
Its all about manning up and making yourself secure in whatever way that means to you, no matter how futile everything ultimately is. As we exist within a thin, delecate biosphere wrapped about a rocky conglomerate hurtling through cold, uncaring space and have only arrived in our current state after millions of years of lethal evolutionary struggle it is shallow to think that we have somehow arrived at a special point in time and struggles no longer apply -- and that now all that must be done is write a few laws and freedom, liberty, information privacy, jobs and free bags of money will come pouring in.
Nobody cares about your problems, your health, your liberty, your freedoms, your life or your privacy but you. And nobody can be compelled to be concerned with such things, they themselves being in the same situation. Laws are a fancy way of attempting to coerce the government monopoly on violence to enforce a sense of caring within society, and this always fails (and is usually, in the ultimate irony, centered on money and materials, the very things that "caring" isn't made of in the first place).
This applies whether we're talking about "my online privacy" as if it were a right, "my healthcare" as if it were a right, or even child education or employment.
On 10/13/2011 12:16 AM, Daniel Sichel wrote:
>> In fact, law enforcement officials don?t even need a search warrant
>> to access private emails.
>
> In point of fact, nobody does, although acquiring this access is
> clearly easier for law enforcement.
> One of the burdens that the freedom the Internet brings, is the freedom.
> Your email is out there, typically unencrypted, available to anyone
> who can snatch the packets off the wire, Any ISP employee with
> appropriate read rights on a mail server.
>
> Take responsibility for your own email. Encrypt it if you must, but
> for heaven sakes, own the fact that it is publicly visible.
>
> If we do not take responsibility for our own email and whine about
> others reading it, than there will HAVE to be regulations by
> government to protect us.
> That's what government does. That's what it is SUPPOSED to do. So
> before we invite Godzilla to protect our email, how about we just man
> up and take responsibility ourselves?
>
> But that's just the idea of a bunch of dead white guys like Edmund
> Burke, John Adams and James Madison, and what do they know?
>
>
> Dan Sichel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:14:50 -0700
From: gillis jones <gillis57@...il.com>
Subject: [Full-disclosure] Cost of Hacks?
To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Message-ID:
<CAPJV=vxgHZzthJUkrn1HAMx+uxF6Zk0B_0Jai4ZJTOWxuqJXPw@...l.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Guys,
First and foremost, apologies if you feel this is spam- don't mean to, just trying to harvest some knowledge... I am looking into the overall cost of a hack, trying to figure out what kind of actual costs are incurred by businesses when they are hacked, so a few things:
1. Do you have any real world figures you would be able to provide me,
officially or unofficially- that would reflect the real cost to business of
hacking? These Include:
A. Any cost for personnel repurposing.
B. Any cost of resources for Bandwidth, Cloud Computing Cycles Consumed, or other miscellaneous expenses associated with an active attack.
C. Cost of regulatory compliance updates ( So, say someone is inside of PCI compliance during an attack, the cost of re-upping their compliancy and any associated costs.)
D. Hard losses due to product stolen/destroyed/rendered useless
E. Projected losses due to customer turnover and/or loss of customer trust relationship.
F. Customer Interaction/Trust Relationship Costs (Notifications,Call Center Volume Redistribution for Questions regarding breach, Discounts)
G. Losses due to fines and lawsuits
H. Cost of Public Relations Management
I am trying to come up with some idea of what the real cost is, not just the cost that corporations cite when they want to look like they are paying the price already for their "sins" but not enough that stockholders take notice...
Thanks for any/ all help and or flames
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:31:41 -0400
From: Jeffrey Walton <noloader@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Cost of Hacks?
To: gillis jones <gillis57@...il.com>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Message-ID:
<CAH8yC8=0N4HUCyhU2=HKd51G4ATNV6G6Rhdc1-cOUdLhDZEvnA@...l.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 9:14 PM, gillis jones <gillis57@...il.com> wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> First and foremost, apologies if you feel this is spam- don't mean to,
> just trying to harvest some knowledge... I am looking into the overall
> cost of a hack, trying to figure out what kind of actual costs are
> incurred by businesses when they are hacked, so a few things:
>
> Do you have any real world figures you would be able to provide me,
> officially or unofficially- that would reflect the real cost to
> business of hacking? These Include:
>
> ???????????????????A. Any cost for personnel repurposing.
> ????????????????????B. Any cost of resources for Bandwidth, Cloud
> Computing Cycles Consumed, or other miscellaneous expenses associated
> with an active attack.
> ????????????????????C. Cost of regulatory compliance updates ( So, say
> someone is inside of PCI compliance during an attack, the cost of
> re-upping their compliancy and any associated costs.)
> ????????????????????D. Hard losses due to product
> stolen/destroyed/rendered useless ????????????????????E. Projected
> losses due to customer turnover and/or loss of customer trust
> relationship.
> ????????????????????F. Customer Interaction/Trust Relationship Costs
> (Notifications,Call Center Volume Redistribution for Questions
> regarding breach, Discounts) ????????????????????G. Losses due to
> fines and lawsuits ????????????????????H. Cost of Public Relations
> Management
>
> I am trying to come up with some idea of what the real cost is, not
> just the cost that corporations cite when they want to look like they
> are paying the price already for their "sins" but not enough that
> stockholders take notice...
Similar was recently asked on SecurityFocus mailing list. See "financial loss estimates? ", http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/105/520013/30/0/threaded.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:15:06 +0900
From: ????? <supergiantpotato@...oo.co.jp>
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] [OT] Obama said: "American people
understand that not everybody's been following the rules"
To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Message-ID: <4E9649AA.5000207@...oo.co.jp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 10/13/2011 08:53 AM, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:47 PM, Ivan .<ivanhec@...il.com> wrote:
>> http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-ang
>> ry-about-2011-10?op=1
>>
> Very nice.
>
> All the pictures make it very easy to take in quickly. It should help
> those who don't want to take a detailed look at the issues. If I could
> only get it on my etch-a-sketch....
>
> Jeff
>
Funny how accurate your statement is about those who "don't want to take a detailed look at the issues." Those are the ones making all the noise.
I would like to draw your attention to the Featured Comment at the bottom of the article. It is spot on and a critical counterpoint.
The entire article is full of leading indicators and trailing indicators, but arguing them as if their meaning were reversed. The most interesting part about all this is looking at them with an eye to predictive analysis. The charts show that we are not in uncharted territory, and that corporate profits in a down season is a leading indicator in a sharp reduction in unemployment (that is, job creation) and another prolonged boom cycle. This will eventually be interrupted by a sharp, short recession, like the one now. The charts used in this article do tell a story, and its not the one the whole 99%/1% argument crowd is about.
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:48:52 +1100
From: "Ivan ." <ivanhec@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] [OT] Obama said: "American people
understand that not everybody's been following the rules"
To: ?? ?? <supergiantpotato@...oo.co.jp>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Message-ID:
<CAKLh_qzTNGfn8=8jpqSS=rtKMyGU366Q3=AWW1FwD9-wV9kBRg@...l.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp"
do your own research, read your own shit, make your own decisions
2011/10/13 ?? ?? <supergiantpotato@...oo.co.jp>
> On 10/13/2011 08:53 AM, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:47 PM, Ivan .<ivanhec@...il.com> wrote:
> >>
> http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angr
> y-about-2011-10?op=1
> >>
> > Very nice.
> >
> > All the pictures make it very easy to take in quickly. It should
> > help those who don't want to take a detailed look at the issues. If
> > I could only get it on my etch-a-sketch....
> >
> > Jeff
> >
>
> Funny how accurate your statement is about those who "don't want to
> take a detailed look at the issues." Those are the ones making all the noise.
>
> I would like to draw your attention to the Featured Comment at the
> bottom of the article. It is spot on and a critical counterpoint.
>
> The entire article is full of leading indicators and trailing
> indicators, but arguing them as if their meaning were reversed. The
> most interesting part about all this is looking at them with an eye to
> predictive analysis. The charts show that we are not in uncharted
> territory, and that corporate profits in a down season is a leading
> indicator in a sharp reduction in unemployment (that is, job creation)
> and another prolonged boom cycle. This will eventually be interrupted
> by a sharp, short recession, like the one now. The charts used in this
> article do tell a story, and its not the one the whole 99%/1% argument
> crowd is about.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
>
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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:49:55 -0500
From: Laurelai <laurelai@...echan.org>
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Snail mail vs. Email
To: noloader@...il.com
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Message-ID: <4E9651D3.1050000@...echan.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 10/12/2011 3:23 PM, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Laurelai<laurelai@...echan.org> wrote:
>> On 10/12/2011 1:26 PM, Daniel Sichel wrote:
>>>> Well there is no push to make snail-mail encrypted and lets face it
>>> most
>>>> peoples mailboxes don't have any sort of locking mechanisms and is
>>>> available to anyone with two hands and the malicious intent to
>>>> steal someones mail however the US Gov needs a warrant to
>>>> intercept your physical mail, why does it being online somehow make it different?
>>> What makes it different (and this is just me speaking, I don't
>>> really know how others feel or what current political thinking is on
>>> this)is that the internet represents a new, unregulated medium that
>>> can redefine some traditional standards and ways of doing Things in
>>> order to do them better. For me, as a conservative, less regulation
>>> an more personal responsibility is better.
>>>
>>> I will say something probably a bit unusual, especially these days,
>>> reasonable men may differ on this view. A very credible argument for
>>> regulation can be made, I just keep coming back the reality that
>>> virtually every regulated medium of communication becomes a point of
>>> control. To shamelessly steal and warp a phrase, "The power to
>>> regulate is the power to destroy."
>>>
>>> I would prefer to be responsible for my own privacy and pit my
>>> skills against the Feds at keeping it that way rather than "trust"
>>> them not to abuse their access to my "protected" email.
>>>
>>> I work in the phone business and we have CALEA requirements which
>>> supposedly allows law enforcement to carry out their sanctioned wire
>>> taps anonymously to protect suspects' right to privacy. I may be
>>> wrong, but it seems pretty abusable (if that's a word) to me. I do
>>> NOT want that on the Internet.
>> Right and the way to stop that is to require a warrant and a paper
>> trail, if someone serves a warrant at your home you get a copy of the
>> warrant and you can ensure they only get exactly what the warrant
>> states and *nothing more* these warantless email seizures have no
>> such limits or accountability.they can literally come in and take
>> copies of all your emails and you will never know about it, and they
>> can do it for practically any reason, if you encrypt your email they
>> will just demand they keys/passwords with a court order and you can't
>> really fight it without spending time in jail, the US Gov simply
>> doesn't have enough accountability or transparency, that's why we
>> *need* more legal protections, if cops kick down your door without a
>> warrant then anything they find rightfully cant be used as evidence,
>> the same thing should apply to electronic communications.
> In the US, we have the legal protections (on paper). The laws are not
> enforced; the checks are balances are lacking; and there is no
> accountatbility for public officials.
>
> There's not a lot we can do when a public official disregards the law,
> and subsequently goes unpunished. The ACLU and EFF do a great job, but
> until public officials spend time imprisoned for their actions,
> nothing will change.
>
> Jeff
That is a good point Jeff, all the more reason to push for change and reform.
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 01:04:25 -0400
From: Jeffrey Walton <noloader@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] [OT] the nigger said: "American people
understand that not everybody's been following the rules"
To: "Ivan ." <ivanhec@...il.com>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Message-ID:
<CAH8yC8=jjaGKAoRRc_xCYXxPjTyzPU49mmFnz=oXHs4aY+c5rg@...l.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 8:12 PM, Ivan . <ivanhec@...il.com> wrote:
> Welcome to Ameristan
I like to refer to it as The United States of Corporate America.
> majority of street lights have been removed from one Michigan city that was
> having trouble paying its electricity bill
> http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/majority-of-street-lights-have-been-removed-from-one-michigan-cit
>
> Colorado empties popular lake to pay its water bill
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8816656/Colorado-empties-popular-lake-to-pay-its-water-bill.html
>
> and so on. Your tax $$$ go to bailouts
Jeff
------------------------------
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