Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:09:13 +0100
From: Martijn Broos <martijn.broos@...xion.com>
To: E M <erhard_m07@...oo.com>, "noloader@...il.com" <noloader@...il.com>
Cc: "full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk" <full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response

Most of the problems start already at education. There is not enough focus during school time what security beholds and what consequences are of bad design, bad programming, bad architecture and bad security principles.  I know schoolbooks that even don't mention security at all or is explained within 2 chapters (let say 20 pages) of a 1000 pages book. This also includes PKI and encryption. Security is only taught by trial and error apparently nowadays. And after you have burnt your fingers a few times you hire an expensive guy who does less kiddies do but give you more of a good feeling.
If programmers are aware of security consequences, they would fix them in the first place or try to avoid them.
Using kiddies is merely showing the terrible state your programmers level is. When you have engineers that are security aware, lesser exploits will be found. You still would look for them anyway because trust is good, prove is better in this scientific world.  In general testers are regarded as lesser people, but imho you should encourage them to try to break your code. At least that is what I do as a software engineer. After they break down my code, my first response is, thanks how did you do it, so I can update my skills as well. But this is all before production off course.
Yes, you can use them but make sure you know where their loyalty lies.
So I vote for the use of kiddies (only in a controlled test environment). This could even be a public test site where this list could try to break the stuff as long as you tell me how you did it:) I know this takes the fun out of it for a few, but hey you cannot please all people in the world.

From: full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk [mailto:full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk] On Behalf Of E M
Sent: maandag 16 januari 2012 21:47
To: noloader@...il.com
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response

I would say that we need both types: the skiddies and the others.
If you give to the skiddies enough fun at work they won't do something beyond the scope.
But their scope should be: I have a site/system(of course, the test one, not the production one!) break it!
They do it without being evil, even if they break it....the job was to break it in the first place.
Then the other security guy should go to the management with the pwnd dummy database/data and show them how bad it would be if it was the real one, and how easily it could be done.
Maybe this way the management provides more funding to the security of the business.
So, yes, hire the skiddies, but keep the other too.

________________________________
From: Jeffrey Walton <noloader@...il.com<mailto:noloader@...il.com>>
To: Laurelai <laurelai@...echan.org<mailto:laurelai@...echan.org>>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk<mailto:full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Fwd: Rate Stratfor's Incident Response

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Laurelai <laurelai@...echan.org<mailto:laurelai@...echan.org>> wrote:
>
> Perhaps these companies should try to hire the kids owning them instead of
> crying to the feds.
Perhaps Stratfor's competition should hire them. Nothing new, there:
the Eastern Telegraph Company hired Nevil Maskelyne after he hacked
Marconi in 1903 during a demonstration of wireless telegraphy. [1]
(Wireless hacking since 1903!).

[1] http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228440.700-dotdashdiss-the-gentleman-hackers-1903-lulz.html.

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