Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 13:36:07 -0400
From: Laurelai <laurelai@...echan.org>
To: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
Subject: Re: Obama Order Sped Up Wave of Cyberattacks
 Against Iran

On 6/8/12 1:03 PM, Thor (Hammer of God) wrote:
>
> >> finding solutions to countries using cyberwar and using innocent
> peoples machines to carry it out,
>
> >>  invading peoples privacy and generally doing terrible stuff in the
> name of god and country.
>
> What solution?  And who exactly is going to "find" it?  The entire
> history of mankind is based on the "terrible stuff we do in the name
> of god and country."  We, of course, being humans.  All we need is one
> of the two and we've got all the justification we need to go off and
> kill someone else for having a different god or different country. 
>  Note I said "justification" and not "motivation."   God and country
> are just excuses -- means to an end.  There's always another agenda.  
>
>  
>
> Man does things for two reasons:  to get laid, or to get paid.  
> Everything else is just a nice fuzzy wrap to make us feel better about
> ourselves.  "Finding some other solution" is  naïve and a waste of
> time.  We, and everyone else, will do whatever we want to do, and do
> whatever it takes to get away with it.  It's as simple as that.  It's
> easy and convenient for you to bitch about the injustices from behind
> a keyboard when men and woman are out there DYING for their country
> and the integrity of what they believe in, irrespective of the basis
> of the decisions their commanding bodies have for sending them out
> there.  It's called "real life."  Grow up and go get that bleeding
> heart sewn up at some free clinic, paid for by the government that has
> to do the hard work in order to preserve your right to whine about it.
>
>  
>
> *Description: Description: Description: Description: Description:
> Description: Description: Description: Description: TimSig***
>
> * *
>
> *Timothy "Thor"  Mullen*
>
> *www.hammerofgod.com*
>
> *Thor's Microsoft Security Bible
> <http://www.amazon.com/Thors-Microsoft-Security-Bible-Collection/dp/1597495727>*
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk
> [mailto:full-disclosure-bounces@...ts.grok.org.uk] *On Behalf Of *Laurelai
> *Sent:* Friday, June 08, 2012 9:04 AM
> *To:* full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk
> *Subject:* Re: [Full-disclosure] Obama Order Sped Up Wave of
> Cyberattacks Against Iran
>
>  
>
> On 6/8/12 11:38 AM, valdis.kletnieks@...edu
> <mailto:valdis.kletnieks@...edu> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 13:48:33 -0400, Ian Hayes said:
>
>     On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 1:40 PM, andrew.wallace <andrew.wallace@...ketmail.com> <mailto:andrew.wallace@...ketmail.com> wrote:
>
>         On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:43 PM,  <valdis.kletnieks@...edu> <mailto:valdis.kletnieks@...edu> wrote:
>
>             One could equally well read that as "We're fed up and about to
>
>             pound North Korea even further back into the Stone Age".
>
>          
>
>         With Stuxnet, it was lucky nobody was seriously injured.
>
>          
>
>         You cannot condone such weapons Valdis, or your hat will start to turn grey,
>
>         black.
>
>      
>
>     Stuxnet may not have killed anyone, but several Iranian nuclear
>
>     scientists were assassinated in conjunction with Stuxnet's release.
>
>  
> Please don't feed the troll - the only way he can post to full-disclosure is
> if somebody quotes him in.
>  
> The worst part is that Andrew's reading comprehension is as good as
> always - I wasn't commenting on Stuxnet, but the move of naval forces
> to the Pacific.  China isn't the only reason we might want a naval task
> force over there.
>  
> And I never said I condoned it, merely pointed out alternate interpretations.
>  
> The funny thing is that Andrew was going on for a *long* time that there
> is no such thing as cyber-warfare - when in fact it was going on while he
> was denying it.
>  
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> I think the real question we should all think on is what are we going
> to do about this kind of thing?
>
> Because the way I see it, the infosec industry is part of this problem
> until it finds a way to be a part of the solution, if you all even
> desire this.
>
> If you do then lets talk about finding solutions to countries using
> cyberwar and using innocent peoples machines to carry it out, invading
> peoples privacy and generally doing terrible stuff in the name of god
> and country.
>
> If you don't then just do us all a favor and stop calling yourself an
> infosec expert, stop pretending to be one of the good guys and just
> call yourself a mercenary and realize you are in the same class of
> people who assassinated civilian scientists for political reasons. I
> hope all that money helps you sleep at night.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Excuse me but im a veteran who served 10 years in the Army and I damn
well earned my right to complain about how broken the system is, myself
and the soldiers around me sacrificed so that we could all have a free
country and that yes I could "whine" about it. Its called the US
Constitution, we took an oath to uphold and defend it and everything it
stands for. I didnt sign up to "get laid or paid" I did it to serve a
cause greater than myself, not that you would know anything about that.
Oh and that "Free clinic paid for by the government" is called the VA
Hospital and I already earned the care I can receive there. Want to
complain about it now? Feel free. You have that right. Its called
freedom of speech. You are welcome.

So while I'm saying here that the civil liberties I swore to uphold and
defend are eroding away and that evil is triumphing over the US, you are
telling me this is business as usual. Forgive me but I do not feel ok
with allowing that to continue.

Just because something evil is the established way of things or is
becoming the established way of things doesn't mean we have to or should
accept it. Perhaps *you* should stop being so cold and jaded about the
evils of the world and put some you know *effort* into fixing them
instead of trying to shout down anyone who tries or talks about trying
to make the world better.

You are honestly implying that there is absolutely nothing that can ever
be done ever and we should all just lie down and take it, can you
understand why I might take issue with that perspective? You are saying
in essence "There is no more room to improve so we should never again try."

All that is necessary /for evil to triumph/ is for good people to do
nothing.



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