Date:	Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:30:11 +0100
From:	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu>
To:	Theodore Tso <tytso@....edu>, Alan Cox <alan@...rguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
	Arjan van de Ven <arjan@...radead.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@...llo.nl>,
	Nick Piggin <npiggin@...e.de>,
	Jens Axboe <jens.axboe@...cle.com>,
	David Rees <drees76@...il.com>, Jesper Krogh <jesper@...gh.cc>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Linux 2.6.29


* Theodore Tso <tytso@....edu> wrote:

> More recently (as in this past weekend), I went back to the ext3 
> problem, and found a better solution, here:
> 
> 	 http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/3/21/304
> 	 http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/3/21/302
> 	 http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/3/21/303
> 
> These patches cause the synchronous writes caused by an fsync() to 
> be submitted using WRITE_SYNC, instead of WRITE, which definitely 
> helps in the case where there is a heavy read workload in the 
> background.
> 
> They don't solve the problem where there is a *huge* amount of 
> writes going on, though --- if something is dirtying pages at a 
> rate far greater than the local disk can write it out, say, either 
> "dd if=/dev/zero of=/mnt/make-lots-of-writes" or a massive distcc 
> cluster driving a huge amount of data towards a single system or a 
> wget over a local 100 megabit ethernet from a massive NFS server 
> where everything is in cache, then you can have a major delay with 
> the fsync().

Nice, thanks for the update! The situation isnt nearly as bleak as i 
feared they are :)

> However, what I've found, though, is that if you're just doing a 
> local copy from one hard drive to another, or downloading a huge 
> iso file from an ftp server over a wide area network, the fsync() 
> delays really don't get *that* bad, even with ext3.  At least, I 
> haven't found a workload that doesn't involve either dd 
> if=/dev/zero or a massive amount of data coming in over the 
> network that will cause fsync() delays in the > 1-2 second 
> category.  Ext3 has been around for a long time, and it's only 
> been the last couple of years that people have really complained 
> about this; my theory is that it was the rise of > 10 megabit 
> ethernets and the use of systems like distcc that really made this 
> problem really become visible.  The only realistic workload I've 
> found that triggers this requires a fast network dumping data to a 
> local filesystem.

i think the problem became visible via the rise in memory size, 
combined with the non-improvement of the performance of rotational 
disks.

The disk speed versus RAM size ratio has become dramatically worse - 
and our "5% of RAM" dirty ratio on a 32 GB box is 1.6 GB - which 
takes an eternity to write out if you happen to sync on that. When 
we had 1 GB of RAM 5% meant 51 MB - one or two seconds to flush out 
- and worse than that, chances are that it's spread out widely on 
the disk, the whole thing becoming seek-limited as well.

That's where the main difference in perception of this problem comes 
from i believe. The problem was always there, but only in the last 
1-2 years did 4G/8G systems become really common for people to 
notice.

SSDs will save us eventually, but they will take up to a decade to 
trickle through for us to forget about this problem altogether.

	Ingo
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