Date:	Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:12:53 +0900
From:	Jin Dongming <jin.dongming@...css.fujitsu.com>
To:	Lon Hohberger <lhh@...hat.com>, Vivek Goyal <vgoyal@...hat.com>
Cc:	LKLM <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Kenji Kaneshige <kaneshige.kenji@...fujitsu.com>,
	Hidetoshi Seto <seto.hidetoshi@...fujitsu.com>,
	"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@...ssion.com>,
	Neil Horman <nhorman@...hat.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] [RFC][Patch x86-tip] add notifier before kdump

Vivek, Lon Hohberger

Thanks for your comments.

I also agree with your opinion, too. But I still have problems listed
as following.
    1. Nobody knows when the second kernel does not work well
    2. Too much time cost to startup the second kernel

So I hope that following work could be done. 
    1. Add some code before kdump to monitor the actions of second kernel
       Something we worried about is that nobody knows when the kdump will not
       work well. If the second kernel does not work well, nobody knows when
       the best time is to restart. So we need to add some code such as setting
       watchdog. If we want to monitor second kernel, some work need to be done
       before it starts to work.

    2. Shorten the startup time of second kernel
       I think that the purpose of second kernel is used for backup information
       stored in memory to storage only. But the time cost is different
       according to the system architecture. And also I think that there are
       too many of device is not useful to get the memory information to
       storage. I think the startup time of second kernel should be shortened.
       I don't know much about second kernel, these are only my thought.

Thanks for your comments again.

Best regards,
Jin Dongming


Lon Hohberger wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 11:07 -0400, Vivek Goyal wrote:
>>> In our PC-cluster, there are two nodes working together, one is running
>>> and the other one is on standby mode. When the running one is going
>>> on panic, we hope the works listed as following would be done:
>>>     1. Before the running kernel is going on panic, the node on standby
>>>        mode should be notified firstly.
>>>     2. After the notified work is done, the panic kernel startup on the
>>>        second kernel to get kdump.
>>> But the current kernel could not do them all.
>>>
> 
> Ok, I'll admit at being naive as to how panicking kernels operate.
> 
> I do not understand how this could be safe from a cluster fencing
> perspective.  Effectively, you're allowing a "bad" kernel to continue to
> do "something", when you should be allowing it to do "nothing".
> 
> This panicking kernel does "something" and the cluster presumably
> initiates recovery /before/ the kdump kernel boots... i.e. with the old,
> panicking kernel still present.
> 
> Shouldn't you at least wait until the kdump kernel boots before telling
> a cluster that it is safe to begin recovery?
> 
>>> This patch is not tested on SH and Power PC.
>>>
>> I guess this might be 3rd or 4th attempt to get this kind of
>> infrastructure in kernel.
>>
>> In the past exporting this kind of hook to modules has been rejected
>> becuase of concerns that modules might be doing too much in side a 

>> crashed kernel and that can hang up the system completely and we can't
>> even capture the dump.
> 
> Right.
>  - the hook can fail
>  - the hook could potentially be a poorly written one which tries to
> access shared storage
> 
> Surely, booting the kdump kernel/env. might fail too - but it's no worse
> than the notification hook failing.  In both cases, you eventually time
> out and fence off (or "STONITH") the failed node
> 
> I suspect doing things in a crashing kernel is more likely to fail than
> doing things in a kdump-booted kernel...
> 
>> In the past two ways have been proposed to handle this situation.
>>
>> - Handle it in second kernel. Especially in initrd. Put right
>>   script/binary/tools and configuration in kdump initrd at the time of
>>   configuration and once second kernel boots, initrd will first send the
>>   kdump message out to other node(s). This can be helpful for fencing
>>   scenario also.
> 
> I think this is safer and more predictable: once the second kernel
> boots, the panicked kernel is not in control any more.  I suspect there
> is a much higher degree of certainty around what the new kdump kernel
> will do than what will happen in the panicked kernel with an added
> 'crashing' hook.
> 
> Waiting for kdump to boot is an unfortunate delay.  However, the trade
> off, I think, is more predictable, ordered failure recovery and
> potentially less risk to data on shared storage (depending on what the
> notify hook does).
> 
> -- Lon
> 
> 
> 


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