Date:	Thu, 4 Feb 2010 14:18:20 -0500
From:	Alex Deucher <alexdeucher@...il.com>
To:	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu>
Cc:	Matthew Garrett <mjg59@...f.ucam.org>,
	Dave Airlie <airlied@...ux.ie>, torvalds@...ux-foundation.org,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, dri-devel@...ts.sf.net
Subject: Re: hung bootup with "drm/radeon/kms: move radeon KMS on/off switch 
	out of staging."

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu> wrote:
>
> * Alex Deucher <alexdeucher@...il.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu> wrote:
>> >
>> > * Matthew Garrett <mjg59@...f.ucam.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Thu, Feb 04, 2010 at 06:54:45PM +0100, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > But you could claim that it's not a regression because 1) technically the
>> >> > code got introduced in drivers/staging/, and staging drivers are not on
>> >> > the regression list 2) the Kconfig value is default-off so it can only
>> >> > harm those who got lured by a new Kconfig value popping up in -rc7 in a
>> >> > well working driver they already have enabled.
>> >> >
>> >> > So the moving of driver functionality from drivers/staging/ to drivers/
>> >> > is a grey area it appears. Wouldnt it have been better to do this in the
>> >> > next merge window, as all other drivers do? It's not new hardware
>> >> > enablement either, it's feature enablement for an existing driver.
>> >>
>> >> The reason the option was in staging (as has been mentioned before) was
>> >> because the ABI wasn't felt to be stable enough. Upstream is now willing to
>> >> commit to that stability, so now seems as good a time to move it as any.
>> >> There's no code change and there's no default configuration change, so I
>> >> really can't see any way that it can be classed as a regression.
>> >
>> > But that argument in essence renders the regression policy meaningless for
>> > such code: just about any new driver feature under the sun could be shaped as
>> > a Kconfig option, introduced via a drivers/staging Kconfig entry, and then
>> > activated via a twoliner commit in a later -rc.
>> >
>> > IMHO the point of tracking regressions is to reduce the bugginess of the
>> > kernel and thus to help users, not to give ground for legalistic arguments.
>> >
>> > There _are_ common-sense exceptions from the regression rules, such as the
>> > introduction of a new piece of hardware that was previously unsupported
>> > (hence there's no expectation of stability) - but the tweaking of an
>> > existing, widely used driver (even if the new opion is default-off) hardly
>> > seems to qualify for that.
>> >
>>
>> This is a completely new driver.  It's only part of the existing drm for
>> compatibility reasons.  It requires an entirely different graphics stack
>> above it and works very differently from the old drm stack.
>
> Will the user know? IMHO what matters in the end is user expectation.
>
> Lets walk through what a current kernel tester of the drm/radeon driver sees
> when he types 'make oldconfig' after installing the (to-be-released) .33-rc7
> kernel. Firstly, the user with a brand-new distro already has this enabled:
>
>  CONFIG_DRM_RADEON=y
>
> and knows the driver, and it performs adequately. Then in -rc7 he gets a new
> option:
>
>  ATI Radeon (DRM_RADEON) [Y/n/?] y
>    Enable modesetting on radeon by default (DRM_RADEON_KMS) [N/y/?] (NEW)
>
> The user might easily go: "Hey this is a driver i already have, and there's a
> new sub-option for this well-working driver. Sure, enable it, these kernel
> folks know what they are doing and i rarely see any crashes past -rc2
> kernels."
>
> Does this new option tell him what you just told me, that:
>
>  > This is a completely new driver.  It's only part of the existing drm for
>  > compatibility reasons.  It requires an entirely different graphics stack
>  > above it and works very differently from the old drm stack.
>
> ?
>
> it doesnt. Even if he types '?', it tells:
>
>  CONFIG_DRM_RADEON_KMS:
>
>  Choose this option if you want kernel modesetting enabled by default,
>  and you have a new enough userspace to support this. Running old
>  userspaces with this enabled will cause pain.
>
> The user will likely go "cool I have a fresh distro with recent Xorg, lets
> try it".
>

And if it crashes, he'll report a bug and we'll fix it.

Alex

> If this is really a brand new driver essentially fresh out of
> drivers/staging/ in -rc7 you should be abundantly clear about that in the
> Kconfig help text - that it's a brand new driver and that it might crash on
> bootup, etc.
>
> Thanks,
>
>        Ingo
>
>
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