Date:	Fri, 07 Dec 2012 18:08:53 -0700
From:	Toshi Kani <toshi.kani@...com>
To:	Jiang Liu <jiang.liu@...wei.com>
Cc:	Jiang Liu <liuj97@...il.com>, "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...k.pl>,
	Hanjun Guo <guohanjun@...wei.com>,
	Vasilis Liaskovitis <vasilis.liaskovitis@...fitbricks.com>,
	linux-acpi@...r.kernel.org, isimatu.yasuaki@...fujitsu.com,
	wency@...fujitsu.com, lenb@...nel.org, gregkh@...uxfoundation.org,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, linux-mm@...ck.org,
	Tang Chen <tangchen@...fujitsu.com>,
	Huxinwei <huxinwei@...wei.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v3 0/3] acpi: Introduce prepare_remove device
 operation

On Fri, 2012-12-07 at 13:57 +0800, Jiang Liu wrote:
> On 2012-12-7 10:57, Toshi Kani wrote:
> > On Fri, 2012-12-07 at 00:40 +0800, Jiang Liu wrote:
> >> On 12/04/2012 08:10 AM, Toshi Kani wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 12:25 +0800, Hanjun Guo wrote:
> >>>> On 2012/11/30 6:27, Toshi Kani wrote:
> >>>>> On Thu, 2012-11-29 at 12:48 +0800, Hanjun Guo wrote:
 :
> >>>
> >>> If I read the code right, the framework calls ACPI drivers differently
> >>> at boot-time and hot-add as follows.  That is, the new entry points are
> >>> called at hot-add only, but .add() is called at both cases.  This
> >>> requires .add() to work differently.
> >>>
> >>> Boot    : .add()
> >>> Hot-Add : .add(), .pre_configure(), configure(), etc.
> >>>
> >>> I think the boot-time and hot-add initialization should be done
> >>> consistently.  While there is difficulty with the current boot sequence,
> >>> the framework should be designed to allow them consistent, not make them
> >>> diverged.
> >> Hi Toshi,
> >> 	We have separated hotplug operations from driver binding/unbinding interface
> >> due to following considerations.
> >> 1) Physical CPU and memory devices are initialized/used before the ACPI subsystem
> >>    is initialized. So under normal case, .add() of processor and acpi_memhotplug only
> >>    figures out information about device already in working state instead of starting
> >>    the device.
> > 
> > I agree that the current boot sequence is not very hot-plug friendly...
> > 
> >> 2) It's impossible to rmmod the processor and acpi_memhotplug driver at runtime 
> >>    if .remove() of CPU and memory drivers do really remove the CPU/memory device
> >>    from the system. And the ACPI processor driver also implements CPU PM funcitonality
> >>    other than hotplug.
> > 
> > Agreed.
> > 
> >> And recently Rafael has mentioned that he has a long term view to get rid of the
> >> concept of "ACPI device". If that happens, we could easily move the hotplug
> >> logic from ACPI device drivers into the hotplug framework if the hotplug logic
> >> is separated from the .add()/.remove() callbacks. Actually we could even move all
> >> hotplug only logic into the hotplug framework and don't rely on any ACPI device
> >> driver any more. So we could get rid of all these messy things. We could achieve
> >> that by:
> >> 1) moving code shared by ACPI device drivers and the hotplug framework into the core.
> >> 2) moving hotplug only code to the framework.
> > 
> > Yes, the framework should allow such future work.  I also think that the
> > framework itself should be independent from such ACPI issue.  Ideally,
> > it should be able to support non-ACPI platforms.
> The same point here. The ACPI based hotplug framework is designed as:
> 1) an ACPI based hotplug slot driver to handle platform specific logic.
>    Platform may provide platform specific slot drivers to discover, manage
>    hotplug slots. We have provided a default implementation of slot driver
>    according to the ACPI spec.

The ACPI spec does not define that _EJ0 is required to receive a hot-add
request, i.e. bus/device check.  This is a major issue.  Since Windows
only supports hot-add, I think there are platforms that only support
hot-add today.

> 2) an ACPI based hotplug manager driver, which is a platform independent
>    driver and manages all hotplug slot created by the slot driver.

It is surely impressive work, but I think is is a bit overdoing.  I
expect hot-pluggable servers come with management console and/or GUI
where a user can manage hardware units and initiate hot-plug operations.
I do not think the kernel needs to step into such area since it tends to
be platform-specific. 

> We haven't gone further enough to provide an ACPI independent hotplug framework
> because we only have experience with x86 and Itanium, both are ACPI based.
> We may try to implement an ACPI independent hotplug framework by pushing all
> ACPI specific logic into the slot driver, I think it's doable. But we need
> suggestions from experts of other architectures, such as SPARC and Power.
> But seems Power already have some sorts of hotplug framework, right?

I do not know about the Linux hot-plug support on other architectures.
PA-RISC SuperDome also supports Node hot-plug, but it is not supported
by Linux.  Since ARM is getting used by servers, I would not surprise if
there will be an ARM based server with hot-plug support in future.

> >> Hi Rafael, what's your thoughts here?
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>>>> 1. Validate phase - Verify if the request is a supported operation.  All
> >>>>>>> known restrictions are verified at this phase.  For instance, if a
> >>>>>>> hot-remove request involves kernel memory, it is failed in this phase.
> >>>>>>> Since this phase makes no change, no rollback is necessary to fail. 
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, we have done this in acpihp_drv_pre_execute, and check following things:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1) Hot-plugble or not. the instance kernel memory you mentioned is also checked
> >>>>>>    when memory device remove;
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Agreed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> 2) Dependency check involved. For instance, if hot-add a memory device,
> >>>>>>    processor should be added first, otherwise it's not valid to this operation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think FW should be the one that assures such dependency.  That is,
> >>>>> when a memory device object is marked as present/enabled/functioning, it
> >>>>> should be ready for the OS to use.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, BIOS should do something for the dependency, because BIOS knows the
> >>>> actual hardware topology. 
> >>>
> >>> Right.
> >>>
> >>>> The ACPI specification provides _EDL method to
> >>>> tell OS the eject device list, but still has no method to tell OS the add device
> >>>> list now.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, but I do not think the OS needs special handling for add...
> >> We have a plan to support triggering hot-adding events from OS provided interfaces,
> >> so we also need to solve dependency issues when handling requests from those interfaces.
> >> For need to power on the physical processor before powering on a memory device if
> >> the memory device is attached to a physical processor.
> > 
> > I am afraid that this issue is platform-specific, and I am not sure if
> > there is a common way to handle such things in general.  I'd recommend
> > to work with FW folks to implement such platform-specific validation
> > code in FW.
> You are right, we may rely on firmware to validate the dependency.

Great!

> >>>> For some cases, OS should analyze the dependency in the validate phase. For example,
> >>>> when hot remove a node (container device), OS should analyze the dependency to get
> >>>> the remove order as following:
> >>>> 1) Host bridge;
> >>>> 2) Memory devices;
> >>>> 3) Processor devices;
> >>>> 4) Container device itself;
> >>>
> >>> This may be off-topic, but how do you plan to delete I/O devices under a
> >>> node?  Are you planning to delete all I/O devices along with the node?
> >>>
> >>> On other OS, we made a separate step called I/O chassis delete, which
> >>> off-lines all I/O devices under the node, and is required before a node
> >>> hot-remove.  It basically triggers PCIe hot-remove to detach drivers
> >>> from all devices.  It does not eject the devices so that they do not
> >>> have to be on hot-plug slots.  This step runs user-space scripts to
> >>> verify if the devices can be off-lined without disrupting user's
> >>> applications, and provides comprehensive reports if any of them are in
> >>> use.  Not sure if Linux's PCI hot-remove has such check, but I thought
> >>> I'd mention it. :)
> >> Yinghai is working on PCI host bridge hotplug, which just stops all PCI devices
> >> under the host bridge. That's really a little dangerous and we do need help
> >> from userspace to check whether the hot-removal operaitons is fatal, 
> >> e.g. removing PCI device hosting the rootfs.
> > 
> > Agreed.
> > 
> >> So in our framework, we have an option to relay hotplug event from firmware
> >> to userspace, so the userspace has a chance to reject the hotplug operations
> >> if it may cause unacceptable disturbance to userspace services.
> > 
> > I think validation from user-space is necessary for deleting I/O
> > devices.  For CPU and memory, the kernel check works fine.
> Agreed. But we may need help from userspace to handle cgroup/cpuset/cpuisol
> etc for cpu and memory hot-removal. Especially for telecom applications, they
> have strong dependency on cgroup/cpuisol to guarantee latency.

I have not looked at the code, but isn't these cpu attributes managed in
the kernel?

Thanks,
-Toshi


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