Date:	Wed, 17 Jul 2013 12:02:59 -0700
From:	Sarah Sharp <sarah.a.sharp@...ux.intel.com>
To:	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>
Cc:	Stefano Stabellini <stefano.stabellini@...citrix.com>,
	CAI Qian <caiqian@...hat.com>, David Lang <david@...g.hm>,
	ksummit-2013-discuss@...ts.linuxfoundation.org,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
	Darren Hart <dvhart@...ux.intel.com>,
	Olivier Galibert <galibert@...ox.com>,
	stable <stable@...r.kernel.org>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Willy Tarreau <w@....eu>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>
Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 01:28:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 18:00 +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > > The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> > > to get a wider range of developers.
> > 
> > Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion?
> > 
> > I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive
> > in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel.
> 
> Matters what you definition of verbally abusive is. Can I say "your code
> is crap!"? I've done that before, and the person I said it to asked me
> to explain why it was crap, and I went into detail to why I called it
> crap and still think it was crap.
> 
> But I'm not even one to insult people, as that's not my personality.
> Well, maybe I've called people "idiot" before. But that usually comes
> with someone sticking to an idea when all evidence proves otherwise.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again.  I'm fine with calling
_code_ crap (or other forms of poop).  I'm fine with someone saying,
"Fix this fuck up, RIGHT NOW!"  I'm not fine with someone personally
attacking a developer and telling them to "SHUT THE FUCK UP!"

> Although I'm one of the tame ones on LKML, I still want to reserve my
> right to be able to call someone an idiot, if someone is making stupid
> ideas and constantly ignores facts that are being presented to them.

If they ignore facts from two emails, fine, call them an idiot and drive
them off with flames of fire and verbal abuse.  But we all need to take
the time to explain the facts, politely, without cussing or personal
attacks, in the first email to the developer.

> Anyway, as I've said several times. Is there a problem here? Besides the
> few outbursts from Linus, is there other examples on LKML within the
> last year where it is an abusive environment?

You really want me to dig up more shit from other developers?  I think
that's an exercise probably best left to a private discussion at KS.

> From what I see, it is
> becoming more mellow, and people have been making efforts to listen to
> each other. The trend on LKML is going in the right direction, so I'm a
> bit curious to why we need to make such an issue of this. Is it just to
> make Linus lower his tone a bit?

Again, I'll re-emphasize this.  I'm not "demanding" that Linus or anyone
in this community change their personal style of communication.  I'm
simply providing incentive for them to change, and asking that they
consider changing.  I'm asking to have an open discussion about this at
KS, away from the public court of opinion.  I cannot "manage" personal
change.  I cannot "force" people to have the will to change.  I can only
ask politely, and advocate for change.  Please don't equate advocating
for change with demanding change.

Sarah Sharp
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