linux-kernel - Re: [GIT PULL] kdbus for 4.1-rc1

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Date:	Wed, 15 Apr 2015 13:03:54 +0100
From:	One Thousand Gnomes <gnomes@...rguk.ukuu.org.uk>
To:	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>
Cc:	Jiri Kosina <jkosina@...e.cz>, Al Viro <viro@...IV.linux.org.uk>,
	Borislav Petkov <bp@...en8.de>,
	Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,
	"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@...ssion.com>,
	Tom Gundersen <teg@...m.no>,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Daniel Mack <daniel@...que.org>,
	David Herrmann <dh.herrmann@...il.com>,
	Djalal Harouni <tixxdz@...ndz.org>
Subject: Re: [GIT PULL] kdbus for 4.1-rc1

> > There is no comparison between the elegance of X11 property setting and a
> > chunk of proposed kernel code that is half the size of a tiny X server!
> 
> Hey, take that up with Havoc, he made the comparison :)

And it concerns me you blindly repeat it without realising its wrong.

> > The dbus model is also flawed in a load of other ways in user space
> > because message handling in the hands of people with no concept of
> > systemic performance analysis just leads to disaster. One of the big
> > reasons dbus is so "slow" isn't that dbus is "slow", it's that the
> > crapware on top of it makes *thousands* of dbus queries.
> 
> There's the issue of thousands of dbus queries, and then there's the
> issue that making those queries takes a measurable amount of time.  We
> can fix the later one, the first one, well, not so much, but we can
> provide the resources for them to make a faster system if they want to.

If you fix the thousands of queries problem do you need kernel help at
all.

> The internet model with state in the endpoints doesn't always transfer
> properly to local applications, see Havoc's email for the details about
> that.

URL ?

(note how beautifully btw the stateless network and the URL string will
become a reference to state)

> > It's telling that I can lose and recover my internet connection without
> > rebooting but not my desktops internal messaging.
> 
> Yes, as those are totally different things, let's not mix the issue up
> here please.

They are *NOT* different things. They are fundamental properties of the
underlying architecture. I worked on stateful networks and still have
the scars. It is a fundamental property of stateful network that every
time any key component goes castors up you lose the lot. It is a fairly
fundamental property of stateless networks that equipment going castors
up has no material impact on the network

The internet is built upon three fundamental breakthroughs in technology

- That stateless networks scale and can be reliable while stateful ones
  cannot scale and cannot be fixed to do so

- That flow control is possible over a stateless network

- That efficient data routing is possible over a stateless network

Those are absolutely critical parts of any network or messaging
implementation.

Alan
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