Date:	Thu, 28 May 2015 19:35:19 +0200
From:	Alexander Larsson <alexl@...hat.com>
To:	"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@...ssion.com>
Cc:	Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net>,
	James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@...senpartnership.com>,
	gnome-os-list@...me.org,
	Linux Containers <containers@...ts.linux-foundation.org>,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	mclasen@...hat.com, Linux FS Devel <linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] devpts: Add ptmx_uid and ptmx_gid options

On Thu, 2015-05-28 at 12:14 -0500, Eric W. Biederman wrote:
> Alexander Larsson <alexl@...hat.com> writes:
> 
> > On Thu, 2015-05-28 at 11:44 -0500, Eric W. Biederman wrote:
> > > Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net> writes:
> > > 
> > > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Eric W. Biederman
> > > > <ebiederm@...ssion.com> wrote:
> > > > > Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net> writes:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Alexander Larsson <
> > > > > > alexl@...hat.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thu, 2015-04-02 at 07:06 -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 3:12 AM, James Bottomley
> > > > > > > > <James.Bottomley@...senpartnership.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2015-03-31 at 16:17 +0200, Alexander Larsson 
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On tis, 2015-03-31 at 17:08 +0300, James Bottomley 
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2015-03-31 at 06:59 -0700, Andy 
> > > > > > > > > > > Lutomirski 
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think that this is correct.  That user 
> > > > > > > > > > > > can 
> > > > > > > > > > > > already create a
> > > > > > > > > > > > nested userns and map themselves as 0 inside 
> > > > > > > > > > > > it. 
> > > > > > > > > > > >  Then they can mount
> > > > > > > > > > > > devpts.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > I don't mind if they create a container and 
> > > > > > > > > > > control 
> > > > > > > > > > > the isolated ttys in
> > > > > > > > > > > that sub container in the VPS; that's fine.  I do 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > mind if they get
> > > > > > > > > > > access to the ttys in the VPS.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > If you can convince me (and the rest of Linux) 
> > > > > > > > > > > that 
> > > > > > > > > > > the tty subsystem
> > > > > > > > > > > should be mountable by an unprivileged user 
> > > > > > > > > > > generally, then what you
> > > > > > > > > > > propose is OK.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > That is controlled by the general rights to mount 
> > > > > > > > > > stuff. I.e. unless you
> > > > > > > > > > have CAP_SYS_ADMIN in the VPS container you will 
> > > > > > > > > > not be 
> > > > > > > > > > able to mount
> > > > > > > > > > devpts there. You can only do it in a subcontainer 
> > > > > > > > > > where you got
> > > > > > > > > > permissions to mount via using user namespaces.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > OK let me try again.  Fine, if you want to speak 
> > > > > > > > > capabilities, you've
> > > > > > > > > given a non-root user an unexpected capability (the 
> > > > > > > > > capability of
> > > > > > > > > creating a ptmx device).  But you haven't used a 
> > > > > > > > > capability separation
> > > > > > > > > to do this, you've just hard coded it via a mount 
> > > > > > > > > parameter mechanism.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > If you want to do this thing, do it properly, so it's 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > acceptable to the
> > > > > > > > > whole of Linux, not a special corner case for one 
> > > > > > > > > particular type of
> > > > > > > > > container.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Security breaches are created when people code in 
> > > > > > > > > special, little used,
> > > > > > > > > corner cases because they don't get as thoroughly 
> > > > > > > > > tested 
> > > > > > > > > and inspected
> > > > > > > > > as generally applicable mechanisms.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > What you want is to be able to use the tty subsystem 
> > > > > > > > > as a 
> > > > > > > > > non root user:
> > > > > > > > > fine, but set that up globally, don't hide it in 
> > > > > > > > > containers so a lot
> > > > > > > > > fewer people care.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > I tend to agree, and not just for the tty subsystem. 
> > > > > > > >  This 
> > > > > > > > is an
> > > > > > > > attack surface issue.  With unprivileged user 
> > > > > > > > namespaces, 
> > > > > > > > unprivileged
> > > > > > > > users can create mount namespaces (probably a good 
> > > > > > > > thing 
> > > > > > > > for bind
> > > > > > > > mounts, etc), network namespaces (reasonably safe by 
> > > > > > > > themselves),
> > > > > > > > network interfaces and iptables rules (scary), fresh
> > > > > > > > instances/superblocks of some filesystems (scariness 
> > > > > > > > depends on the fs
> > > > > > > > -- tmpfs is probably fine), and more.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > I think we should have real controls for this, and this 
> > > > > > > > is 
> > > > > > > > mostly
> > > > > > > > Eric's domain.  Eric?  A silly issue that sometimes 
> > > > > > > > prevents devpts
> > > > > > > > from being mountable isn't a real control, though.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I thought the controls for limiting how much of the userspace 
> > > > > API
> > > > > an application could use were called seccomp and seccomp2.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Do we need something like a PAM module so that we can set up 
> > > > > these
> > > > > controls during login?
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > I'm honestly surprised that non-root is allowed to mount 
> > > > > > > things in
> > > > > > > general with user namespaces. This was long disabled use 
> > > > > > > for 
> > > > > > > non-root in
> > > > > > > Fedora, but it is now enabled.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > For instance, using loopback mounted files you could 
> > > > > > > probably 
> > > > > > > attack
> > > > > > > some of the less well tested filesystem implementations 
> > > > > > > by 
> > > > > > > feeding them
> > > > > > > fuzzed data.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > You actually can't do that right now.  Filesystems have to 
> > > > > > opt 
> > > > > > in to
> > > > > > being mounted in unprivileged user namespaces, and no 
> > > > > > filesystems with
> > > > > > backing stores have opted in.  devpts has, but it's buggy 
> > > > > > without this
> > > > > > patch IMO.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Arguably you should use two user namespaces.  The first to do 
> > > > > 
> > > > > what you
> > > > > want to as root the second to run as the uid you want to run 
> > > > > as.
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > Anyway, I don't see how this affects devpts though. If 
> > > > > > > you're 
> > > > > > > running in
> > > > > > > a container (or uncontained), as a regular users with no 
> > > > > > > mount
> > > > > > > capabilities you can already mount a devpts filesystem if 
> > > > > > > you 
> > > > > > > create a
> > > > > > > subbcontainer with user namespaces and map your uid to 0 
> > > > > > > in 
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > subcontainer. Then you get a new ptmx device that you can 
> > > > > > > do 
> > > > > > > whatever
> > > > > > > you want with. The mount option would let you do the 
> > > > > > > same, 
> > > > > > > except be
> > > > > > > your regular uid in the subcontainer.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The only difference outside of the subcontainer is that 
> > > > > > > if 
> > > > > > > the outer
> > > > > > > container has no uid 0 mapped, yet the user has 
> > > > > > > CAP_SYSADMIN 
> > > > > > > rights in
> > > > > > > that container. Then he can mount devpts in the outer 
> > > > > > > container where he
> > > > > > > before could only mount it in an inner container.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Agreed.  Also, devpts doesn't seem scary at all to me from 
> > > > > > a 
> > > > > > userns
> > > > > > perspective.  Regular users on normal systems can already 
> > > > > > use 
> > > > > > ptmx,
> > > > > > and AFAICS basically all of the attack surface is already 
> > > > > > available
> > > > > > through the normal /dev/ptmx node.
> > > > > 
> > > > > My only real take is that there are a lot more places that 
> > > > > you 
> > > > > need to
> > > > > tweak beyond devpts.  So this patch seemed lacking and 
> > > > > boring.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Beyond that until I get the mount namespace sorted out things 
> > > > > are 
> > > > > pretty
> > > > > much in a feature freeze because I can't multitask well 
> > > > > enough to 
> > > > > do
> > > > > complicated patches and take feature patches.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Eric, do you think you have time now to take a look at this 
> > > > patch?
> > > 
> > > I am much closer.  Escaping bind mounts is still not yet fixed 
> > > but I
> > > have code that almost works.
> > > 
> > > My gut feel still says that two user namespaces one where your 0 
> > > is
> > > mapped to your uid and a second where your uid is identity mapped 
> > > is 
> > > the
> > > preferrable configuration, and makes this patch unnecessary.
> > 
> > I don't really understand this. My usecase is that I want a desktop 
> > app
> > sandbox, it should run as the actual user that is running the 
> > graphical
> > session mapped to its real uid. In this namespace i want a /dev/pts 
> > so
> > that i can e.g. shell out to ssh and feed it a password on the tty
> > prompt or similar. And i don't want to bind-mount in the host 
> > /dev/pts,
> > because then the sandbox can read from the ttys of other apps.
> > 
> > Where does the second namespace enter into this? 
> 
> Step a.  Create create a user namespace where uid 0 is mapped to your
> real uid, and set up your sandbox (aka mount /dev/pts and everything
> else).
> 
> Step b.  Create a nested user namespace where your uid is identity
> mapped and run your desktop application.  You can even drop all caps 
> in
> your namespace.
> 
> Or basically:
>     unshare(CLONE_NEWUSER)
>     
>     map 0 to real_uid
>     set things up.
>     
>     unshare(CLONE_NEWUSER)
>     map real_uid to 0 (Because I am assuming we are
>                       single threaded in the nested context)
>     
>     drop caps
>     exec /path/to/my/sandboxed/application

Thanks. I'll try that.

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