linux-kernel - Re: [v3,11/41] mips: reuse asm-generic/barrier.h

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Date:	Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:29:21 -0800
From:	"Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>
To:	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>
Cc:	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
	Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>,
	Herbert Xu <herbert@...dor.apana.org.au>,
	Leonid Yegoshin <Leonid.Yegoshin@...tec.com>,
	linux-mips <linux-mips@...ux-mips.org>,
	"linux-ia64@...r.kernel.org" <linux-ia64@...r.kernel.org>,
	"Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>,
	Will Deacon <will.deacon@....com>,
	virtualization <virtualization@...ts.linux-foundation.org>,
	Peter Anvin <hpa@...or.com>, sparclinux@...r.kernel.org,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>,
	"linux-arch@...r.kernel.org" <linux-arch@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-s390 <linux-s390@...r.kernel.org>,
	Russell King - ARM Linux <linux@....linux.org.uk>,
	uml-devel <user-mode-linux-devel@...ts.sourceforge.net>,
	linux-sh@...r.kernel.org, Michael Ellerman <mpe@...erman.id.au>,
	the arch/x86 maintainers <x86@...nel.org>,
	xen-devel@...ts.xenproject.org, Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu>,
	linux-xtensa@...ux-xtensa.org,
	James Hogan <james.hogan@...tec.com>,
	Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,
	Stefano Stabellini <stefano.stabellini@...citrix.com>,
	adi-buildroot-devel@...ts.sourceforge.net,
	David Daney <ddaney.cavm@...il.com>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
	linux-metag@...r.kernel.org,
	"linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org" 
	<linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org>,
	Andrew Cooper <andrew.cooper3@...rix.com>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	Ralf Baechle <ralf@...ux-mips.org>,
	Joe Perches <joe@...ches.com>,
	ppc-dev <linuxppc-dev@...ts.ozlabs.org>,
	David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>
Subject: Re: [v3,11/41] mips: reuse asm-generic/barrier.h

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 02:33:40PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Linus Torvalds
> <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org> wrote:
> >
> > You might as well just write it as
> >
> >     struct foo x = READ_ONCE(*ptr);
> >     x->bar = 5;
> >
> > because that "smp_read_barrier_depends()" does NOTHING wrt the second write.
> 
> Just to clarify: on alpha it adds a memory barrier, but that memory
> barrier is useless.

No trailing data-dependent read, so agreed, no smp_read_barrier_depends()
needed.  That said, I believe that we should encourage rcu_dereference*()
or lockless_dereference() instead of READ_ONCE() for documentation
reasons, though.

> On non-alpha, it is a no-op, and obviously does nothing simply because
> it generates no code.
> 
> So if anybody believes that the "smp_read_barrier_depends()" does
> something, they are *wrong*.

The other problem with smp_read_barrier_depends() is that it is often
a pain figuring out which prior load it is supposed to apply to.
Hence my preference for rcu_dereference*() and lockless_dereference().

> And if anybody sends out an email with that smp_read_barrier_depends()
> in an example, they are actively just confusing other people, which is
> even worse than just being wrong. Which is why I jumped in.
> 
> So stop perpetuating the myth that smp_read_barrier_depends() does
> something here. It does not. It's a bug, and it has become this "mind
> virus" for some people that seem to believe that it does something.

It looks like I should add words to memory-barriers.txt de-emphasizing
smp_read_barrier_depends().  I will take a look at that.

> I had to remove this crap once from the kernel already, see commit
> 105ff3cbf225 ("atomic: remove all traces of READ_ONCE_CTRL() and
> atomic*_read_ctrl()").
> 
> I don't want to ever see that broken construct again. And I want to
> make sure that everybody is educated about how broken it was. I'm
> extremely unhappy that it came up again.

Well, if it makes you feel better, that was control dependencies and this
was data dependencies.  So it was not -exactly- the same.  ;-)

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)

> If it turns out that some architecture does actually need a barrier
> between a read and a dependent write, then that will mean that
> 
>  (a) we'll have to make up a _new_ barrier, because
> "smp_read_barrier_depends()" is not that barrier. We'll presumably
> then have to make that new barrier part of "rcu_derefence()" and
> friends.

Agreed.  We can worry about whether or not we replace the current
smp_read_barrier_depends() with that new barrier when and if such
hardware appears.

>  (b) we will have found an architecture with even worse memory
> ordering semantics than alpha, and we'll have to stop castigating
> alpha for being the worst memory ordering ever.

;-) ;-) ;-)

> but I sincerely hope that we'll never find that kind of broken architecture.

Apparently at least some hardware vendors are reading memory-barriers.txt,
so perhaps the odds of that kind of breakage have reduced.

								Thanx, Paul