Date:	Wed, 3 Aug 2016 20:08:20 +0200
From:	"Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@...nel.org>
To:	Bjorn Andersson <bjorn.andersson@...aro.org>,
	Jeff Mahoney <jeffm@...e.com>, Takashi Iwai <tiwai@...e.de>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>
Cc:	"Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@...nel.org>,
	Daniel Wagner <daniel.wagner@...-carit.de>,
	Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov@...il.com>,
	Arend van Spriel <arend.vanspriel@...adcom.com>,
	Daniel Wagner <wagi@...om.org>,
	Bastien Nocera <hadess@...ess.net>,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
	Johannes Berg <johannes.berg@...el.com>,
	Kalle Valo <kvalo@...eaurora.org>,
	Ohad Ben-Cohen <ohad@...ery.com>,
	Mimi Zohar <zohar@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>,
	David Howells <dhowells@...hat.com>,
	Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net>,
	David Woodhouse <dwmw2@...radead.org>,
	Julia Lawall <julia.lawall@...6.fr>,
	linux-input@...r.kernel.org, linux-kselftest@...r.kernel.org,
	linux-wireless@...r.kernel.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [RFC v0 7/8] Input: ims-pcu: use firmware_stat instead of
 completion

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 10:39:55AM -0700, Bjorn Andersson wrote:
> On Tue 02 Aug 00:41 PDT 2016, Luis R. Rodriguez wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 08:53:55AM +0200, Daniel Wagner wrote:
> > > On 08/02/2016 08:34 AM, Luis R. Rodriguez wrote:
> > > >On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 07:49:19AM +0200, Daniel Wagner wrote:
> > > >>>The sysdata API's main goal rather is to provide a flexible API first,
> > > >>>compartamentalizing the usermode helper was secondary. But now it seems
> > > >>>I may just also add devm support too to help simplify code further.
> > > >>
> > > >>I missed the point that you plan to add usermode helper support to
> > > >>the sysdata API.
> > > >
> > > >I had no such plans, when I have asked folks so far about "hey are you
> > > >really in need for it, OK what for? " and "what extended uses do you
> > > >envision?" so I far I have not gotten any replies at all. So -- instead
> > > >sysdata currently ignores it.
> > > 
> > > So you argue for the remoteproc use case with 100+ MB firmware that
> > > if there is a way to load after pivot_root() (or other additional
> > > firmware partition shows up) then there is no need at all for
> > > usermode helper?
> > 
> > No, I'm saying I'd like to hear valid uses cases for the usermode helper and so
> > far I have only found using coccinelle grammar 2 explicit users, that's it. My
> > patch series (not yet merge) then annotates these as valid as I've verified
> > through their documentation they have some quirky requirement.
> > 
> 
> I think we're on the same page, but just to make sure; I do not want the
> usermode helper,

Yay.

> I only want a way to wait for the firmware files to
> become available.

Sure.

> > Other than these two drivers I'd like hear to valid requirements for it.
> > 
> > The existential issue is a real issue but it does not look impossible to
> > resolve. It may be a solution to bloat up the kernel with 100+ MB size just to
> > stuff built-in firmware to avoid this issue, but it does not mean a solution
> > is not possible.
> > 
> > Remind me -- why can remoteproc not stuff the firmware in initramfs ?
> > 
> 
> RAM usage:
> Storing the files in initramfs would consume 100MB RAM, we would then
> allocate 100MB RAM for buffers during firmware loading and then we have
> the reserved 100MB for the peripherals. The buffers could be easily be
> removed with a mechanism for providing a buffer to the load operation,
> but we would still double the RAM consumption.
> 
> Boot time:
> Enlarging the kernel by 100MB will give noticeable addition to boot
> times.

Right I see.. Since we read the full kernel...

> Development issues:
> I have numerous concerns related to this, e.g. not being able to side
> load the firmware files without rebuilding the initramfs. But most of
> these are not technical issues, but rather a matter of convenience.
> 
> One large issue would be how to figure out how large to make the boot
> partition in your Android phone, to cope with potential future growth in
> firmware size - which has already proven to be a mess.
> 
> Legal matters:
> Some of these firmware files are not redistributable, making it
> impossible for end users to rebuild their kernel without loosing
> functionality. There are even cases where these files are not allowed to
> share partition with GPL binaries.
> 
> 
> Most of these are just a major inconveniences to the developer but some
> are show stoppers; especially the legal matters. So if we wave this off
> as something people can live without then every downstream will sit on
> their own solution to reimplement it.

Thanks I'll document these into the firmware_class.

> > Anyway, here's a simple suggestion: fs/exec.c gets a sentinel file monitor
> > support per enum kernel_read_file_id. For instance we'd have one for
> > READING_FIRMWARE, one for READING_KEXEC_IMAGE, perhaps READING_POLICY, and this
> > would in turn be used as the system configurable deterministic file for
> > which to wait for to be present before enabling each enum kernel_read_file_id
> > type read.
> > 
> > Thoughts ?
> 
> That does sound like a good generic solution for our problem and for the
> other types of files as well. Do you have any ideas (patches?) on how
> each sentinel would be triggered?
> 
> The only concern I can think of right now is that the
> firmware_class.path might point to a separate partition; but based on
> how the signaling of the sentinels are implemented this might not be an
> issue.

There's another simpler suggestion I'm getting too, will post in the other
thread.

  Luis

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