Date:   Mon, 19 Jun 2017 01:43:29 +0000
From:   "Zheng, Lv" <lv.zheng@...el.com>
To:     Bastien Nocera <hadess@...ess.net>
CC:     Benjamin Tissoires <benjamin.tissoires@...hat.com>,
        Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer@...-t.net>,
        Lennart Poettering <mzxreary@...inter.de>,
        "Wysocki, Rafael J" <rafael.j.wysocki@...el.com>,
        "Rafael J . Wysocki" <rjw@...ysocki.net>,
        "Brown, Len" <len.brown@...el.com>, Lv Zheng <zetalog@...il.com>,
        "linux-acpi@...r.kernel.org" <linux-acpi@...r.kernel.org>,
        "systemd-devel@...ts.freedesktop.org" 
        <systemd-devel@...ts.freedesktop.org>,
        "linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        "linux-input@...r.kernel.org" <linux-input@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: RE: [systemd-devel] [WIP PATCH 0/4] Rework the unreliable LID
 switch exported by ACPI

Hi,

> From: Bastien Nocera [mailto:hadess@...ess.net]
> Subject: Re: [systemd-devel] [WIP PATCH 0/4] Rework the unreliable LID switch exported by ACPI
> 
> 
> 
> > On 16 Jun 2017, at 10:53, Zheng, Lv <lv.zheng@...el.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >> From: Benjamin Tissoires [mailto:benjamin.tissoires@...hat.com]
> >> Subject: Re: [systemd-devel] [WIP PATCH 0/4] Rework the unreliable LID switch exported by ACPI
> >>
> >>> On Jun 16 2017 or thereabouts, Zheng, Lv wrote:
> >>> Hi, Benjamin
> >>>
> >>> Let me just say something one more time.
> >>>
> >>>> From: Benjamin Tissoires [mailto:benjamin.tissoires@...hat.com]
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We can see:
> >>>>>>> "logind" has already implemented a timeout, and will not respond lid state
> >>>>>>> unless it can be stable within this timeout period.
> >>>>>>> I'm not an expert of logind, maybe this is because of "HoldOffTimeoutSec"?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I feel "removing the input node for a period where its state is not trustful"
> >>>>>>> is technically identical to this mechanism.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> but you'd be making kernel policy based on one userspace implementation.
> >>>>>> e.g. libinput doesn't have a timeout period, it assumes the state is
> >>>>>> correct when an input node is present.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do you see practical issues?
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, libinput can't rely on the LID switch information to disable
> >>>> touchpads/touchscreens that are potentially sending false positive.
> >>>
> >>> "potential" doesn't mean "practical", right?
> >>
> >> I was using potential to say that some actual devices are sending
> >> rightful states, while others are not (we already named them a lot in
> >> those countless threads). So potential here is from a user space
> >> perspective where you are not sure if the state is reliable or not
> >> (given we currently don't have this information about reliability).
> >>
> >>> After applying my last version.
> >>> There are no false-positives IMO.
> >>> There are only delays for the reliable key events.
> >>>               ^^^^^^
> >>> While the "delay" is very common in computing world.
> >>
> >> No, if there is a delay, there is a false positive, because the initial
> >> state is wrong with respect to the device physical state.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>> After resume, SW_LID state could remain unreliable "close" for a while.
> >>>>
> >>>> This is not an option. It is not part of the protocol, having an
> >>>> unreliable state.
> >>>>
> >>>>> But that's just a kind of delay happens in all computing programs.
> >>>>> I suppose all power managing programs have already handled that.
> >>>>> I confirmed no breakage for systemd 233.
> >>>>> For systemd 229, it cannot handle it well due to bugs.
> >>>>> But my latest patch series has worked the bug around.
> >>>>> So I don't see any breakage related to post-resume incorrect state period.
> >>>>> Do you see problems that my tests haven't covered?
> >>>>
> >>>> The problems are that you are not following the protocol. And if systemd
> >>>> 233 works around it, that's good, but systemd is not the only listener
> >>>> of the LID switch input node, and you are still breaking those by
> >>>> refusing to follow the specification of the evdev protocol.
> >>>
> >>> As you are talking about protocol, let me just ask once.
> >>>
> >>> In computing world,
> >>> 1. delay is very common
> >>>   There are bus turnaround, network turnaround, ...
> >>>   Even measurement itself has delay described by Shannon sampling.
> >>>   Should the delay be a part of the protocol?
> >>
> >> Please, you are either trolling or just kidding. If there are delays in
> >> the "computing world", these has to be handled by the kernel, and not
> >> exported to the user space if the kernel protocol says that the state is
> >> reliable.
> >>
> >>> 2. programs are acting according to rules (we call state machines)
> >>>   States are only determined after measurement (like "quantum states")
> >>>   I have Schroedinger's cat in my mind.
> >>>   Events are determined as they always occur after measurement to trigger "quantum jumps".
> >>>   So for EV_SW protocol,
> >>>   Should programs rely on the reliable "quantum jumps",
> >>>   Or should programs rely on the unreliable "quantum states"?
> >>
> >> No comments, this won't get us anywhere.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I think most UI programs care no about state stored in the input node,
> >>> they only receive events raised from the input node.
> >>
> >> Bullshit. When you launch such a program, you need to query the state
> >> because you won't receive the event that happened way before the launch.
> >>
> >>> Why should the kernel export a fade-in/fade-out input node to the UI programs and ask them to
> change?
> >>>
> >>> The only program that cares about the state stored in the input node is libinput.
> >>> So why should every user program be changed to make libinput easier?
> >>
> >> No, all program that listen to LID switches input nodes care about the
> >> state. We already told you that, you just don't listen:
> >>
> >> - systemd cares about the state as it does polling on the input node in
> >>  case it misses an event
> >> - libinput cares about the state as previously mentioned
> >> - gnome-setting-daemons cares about the state given it decides whether
> >>  or not lighting up the monitors depending on the state. And if you
> >>  relaunch the daemon, it'll query the state to decide what is the best
> >>  arrangement for the screens
> >
> > Let's consider this case with delay:
> > After resume, gnome-setting-daemon queries SW_LID and got "close".
> > Then it lights up the wrong monitors.
> > Then I believe "open" will be delivered to it several seconds later.
> > Should gnome-setting-daemon light-up correct monitors this time?
> > So it just looks like user programs behave with a delay accordingly because of the "platform
> turnaround" delay.
> 
> If you implement it in such a way that GNOME settings daemon behaves weirdly, you'll get my revert
> request in the mail. Do. Not. Ever. Lie.

First, I don't know what should be reverted...
I have 2 solutions here for review, and Benjamin has 1.
And none of them has been upstreamed.
We are just discussing.
However we need to get 1 of them upstreamed in next cycle.

I think users won't startup gnome-setting-daemon right after resume.
It should have already been started.

There is only 1 platform may see delayed state update after resume.
Let's see if there is a practical issue.
1. Before suspend, the "lid state" is "close", and
2. After resume, the state might remain "close" for a while
   Since libinput won't deliver close to userspace,
   and gnome-setting-daemon listens to key switches, there is no wrong behavior.
3. Then after several seconds, "open" arrives.
   gnome-setting-daemon re-arrange monitors and screen layouts in response to the new event.
So there is no problem. IMO, there is no need to improve for post-resume case.

Users will just startup gnome-setting-daemon once after boot.
And it's likely that when it is started, the state is correct.
IMO, there might be a chance to improve for post-boot case using Benjamin's approach.

Thanks
Lv


> 
> >
> >> - KDE should do the same (as it is not a daemon that can catch any
> >>  events)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Lv
> > .¢éì¹».®&Þ~º&¶.¬–+-±éݶ.¥Šw®žË›±Êâmébžìbž›­Š{ayº.ʇڙë,j­¢f£¢·hš‹àz¹.®w¥¢¸
> 
> ¢·¦j:+v‰¨ŠwèjØm¶Ÿÿ¾«‘êçzZ+ƒùšŽŠÝ¢j"ú!¶i

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