Date:   Tue, 5 Sep 2017 09:18:55 -0700
From:   Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@...el.com>
To:     Jerome Glisse <jglisse@...hat.com>
Cc:     Bob Liu <liubo95@...wei.com>,
        Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
        "linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Linux MM <linux-mm@...ck.org>,
        John Hubbard <jhubbard@...dia.com>,
        David Nellans <dnellans@...dia.com>,
        Balbir Singh <bsingharora@...il.com>,
        majiuyue <majiuyue@...wei.com>,
        "xieyisheng (A)" <xieyisheng1@...wei.com>,
        Ross Zwisler <ross.zwisler@...ux.intel.com>,
        Mel Gorman <mgorman@...e.de>, Rik van Riel <riel@...hat.com>,
        Michal Hocko <mhocko@...nel.org>
Subject: Re: [HMM-v25 19/19] mm/hmm: add new helper to hotplug CDM memory
 region v3

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 6:50 AM, Jerome Glisse <jglisse@...hat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 05, 2017 at 11:50:57AM +0800, Bob Liu wrote:
>> On 2017/9/5 10:38, Jerome Glisse wrote:
>> > On Tue, Sep 05, 2017 at 09:13:24AM +0800, Bob Liu wrote:
>> >> On 2017/9/4 23:51, Jerome Glisse wrote:
>> >>> On Mon, Sep 04, 2017 at 11:09:14AM +0800, Bob Liu wrote:
>> >>>> On 2017/8/17 8:05, Jérôme Glisse wrote:
>> >>>>> Unlike unaddressable memory, coherent device memory has a real
>> >>>>> resource associated with it on the system (as CPU can address
>> >>>>> it). Add a new helper to hotplug such memory within the HMM
>> >>>>> framework.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Got an new question, coherent device( e.g CCIX) memory are likely reported to OS
>> >>>> through ACPI and recognized as NUMA memory node.
>> >>>> Then how can their memory be captured and managed by HMM framework?
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Only platform that has such memory today is powerpc and it is not reported
>> >>> as regular memory by the firmware hence why they need this helper.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't think anyone has defined anything yet for x86 and acpi. As this is
>> >>
>> >> Not yet, but now the ACPI spec has Heterogeneous Memory Attribute
>> >> Table (HMAT) table defined in ACPI 6.2.
>> >> The HMAT can cover CPU-addressable memory types(though not non-cache
>> >> coherent on-device memory).
>> >>
>> >> Ross from Intel already done some work on this, see:
>> >> https://lwn.net/Articles/724562/
>> >>
>> >> arm64 supports APCI also, there is likely more this kind of device when CCIX
>> >> is out (should be very soon if on schedule).
>> >
>> > HMAT is not for the same thing, AFAIK HMAT is for deep "hierarchy" memory ie
>> > when you have several kind of memory each with different characteristics:
>> >   - HBM very fast (latency) and high bandwidth, non persistent, somewhat
>> >     small (ie few giga bytes)
>> >   - Persistent memory, slower (both latency and bandwidth) big (tera bytes)
>> >   - DDR (good old memory) well characteristics are between HBM and persistent
>> >
>>
>> Okay, then how the kernel handle the situation of "kind of memory each with different characteristics"?
>> Does someone have any suggestion?  I thought HMM can do this.
>> Numa policy/node distance is good but perhaps require a few extending, e.g a HBM node can't be
>> swap, can't accept DDR fallback allocation.
>
> I don't think there is any consensus for this. I put forward the idea that NUMA
> needed to be extended as with deep hierarchy it is not only the distance between
> two nodes but also others factors like persistency, bandwidth, latency ...
>
>
>> > So AFAICT this has nothing to do with what HMM is for, ie device memory. Note
>> > that device memory can have a hierarchy of memory themself (HBM, GDDR and in
>> > maybe even persistent memory).
>> >
>>
>> This looks like a subset of HMAT when CPU can address device memory directly in cache-coherent way.
>
> It is not, it is much more complex than that. Linux kernel has no idea on what is
> going on a device and thus do not have any usefull informations to make proper
> decission regarding device memory. Here device is real device ie something with
> processing capability, not something like HBM or persistent memory even if the
> latter is associated with a struct device inside linux kernel.
>
>>
>>
>> >>> memory on PCIE like interface then i don't expect it to be reported as NUMA
>> >>> memory node but as io range like any regular PCIE resources. Device driver
>> >>> through capabilities flags would then figure out if the link between the
>> >>> device and CPU is CCIX capable if so it can use this helper to hotplug it
>> >>> as device memory.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> From my point of view,  Cache coherent device memory will popular soon and
>> >> reported through ACPI/UEFI. Extending NUMA policy still sounds more reasonable
>> >> to me.
>> >
>> > Cache coherent device will be reported through standard mecanisms defined by
>> > the bus standard they are using. To my knowledge all the standard are either
>> > on top of PCIE or are similar to PCIE.
>> >
>> > It is true that on many platform PCIE resource is manage/initialize by the
>> > bios (UEFI) but it is platform specific. In some case we reprogram what the
>> > bios pick.
>> >
>> > So like i was saying i don't expect the BIOS/UEFI to report device memory as
>>
>> But it's happening.
>> In my understanding, that's why HMAT was introduced.
>> For reporting device memory as regular memory(with different characteristics).
>
> That is not my understanding but only Intel can confirm. HMAT was introduced
> for things like HBM or persistent memory. Which i do not consider as device
> memory. Sure persistent memory is assign a device struct because it is easier
> for integration with the block system i assume. But it does not make it a
> device in my view. For me a device is a piece of hardware that has some
> processing capabilities (network adapter, sound card, GPU, ...)
>
> But we can argue about semantic and what a device is. For all intent and purposes
> device in HMM context is some piece of hardware with processing capabilities and
> local device memory.

I would say that device memory at its base-level is a memory range
whose availability is dependent on a device-driver. HMM layers some
additional functionality on top, but ZONE_DEVICE should only be seen
as the device-driver controlled lifetime and not conflated with the
incremental HMM functionality.

HMAT simply allows you to associate a memory range with a numa-node /
proximity-domain number that represents a set of performance / feature
characteristics.

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