Date:   Tue, 30 Jan 2018 15:52:09 +0100
From:   Christian Borntraeger <borntraeger@...ibm.com>
To:     Christophe de Dinechin <christophe.de.dinechin@...il.com>
Cc:     Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
        David Woodhouse <dwmw2@...radead.org>,
        Arjan van de Ven <arjan@...ux.intel.com>,
        Eduardo Habkost <ehabkost@...hat.com>,
        KarimAllah Ahmed <karahmed@...zon.de>,
        Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        Andi Kleen <ak@...ux.intel.com>,
        Andrea Arcangeli <aarcange@...hat.com>,
        Andy Lutomirski <luto@...nel.org>,
        Ashok Raj <ashok.raj@...el.com>,
        Asit Mallick <asit.k.mallick@...el.com>,
        Borislav Petkov <bp@...e.de>,
        Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@...el.com>,
        Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@...el.com>,
        Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@...uxfoundation.org>,
        "H . Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>, Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>,
        Janakarajan Natarajan <Janakarajan.Natarajan@....com>,
        Joerg Roedel <joro@...tes.org>,
        Jun Nakajima <jun.nakajima@...el.com>,
        Laura Abbott <labbott@...hat.com>,
        Masami Hiramatsu <mhiramat@...nel.org>,
        Paolo Bonzini <pbonzini@...hat.com>,
        Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
        Radim Krčmář <rkrcmar@...hat.com>,
        Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
        Tim Chen <tim.c.chen@...ux.intel.com>,
        Tom Lendacky <thomas.lendacky@....com>,
        KVM list <kvm@...r.kernel.org>,
        the arch/x86 maintainers <x86@...nel.org>,
        "Dr. David Alan Gilbert" <dgilbert@...hat.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC,05/10] x86/speculation: Add basic IBRS support
 infrastructure



On 01/30/2018 03:46 PM, Christophe de Dinechin wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 30 Jan 2018, at 13:11, Christian Borntraeger <borntraeger@...ibm.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 01/30/2018 01:23 AM, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>> [...]
>>>
>>> So I actually have a _different_ question to the virtualization
>>> people. This includes the vmware people, but it also obviously
>>> incldues the Amazon AWS kind of usage.
>>>
>>> When you're a hypervisor (whether vmware or Amazon), why do you even
>>> end up caring about these things so much? You're protected from
>>> meltdown thanks to the virtual environment already having separate
>>> page tables.  And the "big hammer" approach to spectre would seem to
>>> be to just make sure the BTB and RSB are flushed at vmexit time - and
>>> even then you might decide that you really want to just move it to
>>> vmenter time, and only do it if the VM has changed since last time
>>> (per CPU).
>>>
>>> Why do you even _care_ about the guest, and how it acts wrt Skylake?
>>> What you should care about is not so much the guests (which do their
>>> own thing) but protect guests from each other, no?
>>>
>>> So I'm a bit mystified by some of this discussion within the context
>>> of virtual machines. I think that is separate from any measures that
>>> the guest machine may then decide to partake in.
>>>
>>> If you are ever going to migrate to Skylake, I think you should just
>>> always tell the guests that you're running on Skylake. That way the
>>> guests will always assume the worst case situation wrt Specte.
>>>
>>> Maybe that mystification comes from me missing something.
>>
>> I can only speak for KVM, but I think the hypervisor issues come from
>> the fact that for migration purposes the hypervisor "lies" to the guest
>> in regard to what kind of CPU is running.  (it has to lie, see below).
>>
>> This is to avoid random guest crashes by not announcing features. For
>> example if you want to migrate forth and back between a system that
>> has AVX512 and another one that has not you must tell the guest that
>> AVX512 is not available - even if it runs on the capable system.
>>
>> To protect against new features the hypervisor only announces features
>> that it understands.
>> So you essentially start a VM in QEMU of a given CPU type that is
>> constructed of a base cpu type plus extra features. Before migration, 
>> it is checked if  he target system can run a guest of given type - 
>> otherwise migration is rejected. 
>>
>> The management stack also knows things like baselining - basically
>> creating the best possible guest CPU given a set of hosts.
>>
>> The problem now is: If you have lets say Broadwell and Skylakes.
>> What kind of CPU type are you telling your guest? If you claim
>> broadwell but run on skylake then you prevent that the guest can 
>> protect itself, because the guest does not know that it should do 
>> something special. If you say skylake the guest might start using
>> features that broadwell does not understand.
> 
> I believe that Linus’ question was whether it makes sense to defer
> the entirety of the protection to the host kernel, although I was a bit
> confused by his suggestion to always assume Skylake.
> 
> In other words, is it safe enough to rely on the host kernel countermeasure
> to protect guest kernels and their applications? In which case having
> the guest believe it runs on Broadwell would not be that problematic.
> 
> Aren’t there enough vmexits on the guest kernel context switch
> to enforce protection on its behalf? Even if it’s
> 
> a) some old kernel that without mitigation code
> 
> or
> 
> b) some new kernel that thinks it runs on an old CPU and disabled mitigation
> 
I think it is not safe to just protect the host. CPU bound workload in the guest
will switch a lot between guest user and guest kernel without triggering an
exit.

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