netdev - Re: [PATCH 0/24] make atomic_read() behave consistently across all architectures

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Date:	Fri, 17 Aug 2007 14:44:48 +0530 (IST)
From:	Satyam Sharma <satyam@...radead.org>
To:	Nick Piggin <nickpiggin@...oo.com.au>
cc:	Herbert Xu <herbert@...dor.apana.org.au>,
	Paul Mackerras <paulus@...ba.org>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Christoph Lameter <clameter@....com>,
	Chris Snook <csnook@...hat.com>,
	Ilpo Jarvinen <ilpo.jarvinen@...sinki.fi>,
	"Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>,
	Stefan Richter <stefanr@...6.in-berlin.de>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-arch@...r.kernel.org, Netdev <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>, ak@...e.de,
	heiko.carstens@...ibm.com, David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>,
	schwidefsky@...ibm.com, wensong@...ux-vs.org, horms@...ge.net.au,
	wjiang@...ilience.com, cfriesen@...tel.com, zlynx@....org,
	rpjday@...dspring.com, jesper.juhl@...il.com,
	segher@...nel.crashing.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/24] make atomic_read() behave consistently across all
 architectures



On Fri, 17 Aug 2007, Nick Piggin wrote:

> Satyam Sharma wrote:
> [...]
> > Granted, the above IS buggy code. But, the stated objective is to avoid
> > heisenbugs.
    ^^^^^^^^^^

> Anyway, why are you making up code snippets that are buggy in other
> ways in order to support this assertion being made that lots of kernel
> code supposedly depends on volatile semantics. Just reference the
> actual code.

Because the point is *not* about existing bugs in kernel code. At some
point Chris Snook (who started this thread) did write that "If I knew
of the existing bugs in the kernel, I would be sending patches for them,
not this series" or something to that effect.

The point is about *author expecations*. If people do expect atomic_read()
(or a variant thereof) to have volatile semantics, why not give them such
a variant?

And by the way, the point is *also* about the fact that cpu_relax(), as
of today, implies a full memory clobber, which is not what a lot of such
loops want. (due to stuff mentioned elsewhere, summarized in that summary)


> > And we have driver / subsystem maintainers such as Stefan
> > coming up and admitting that often a lot of code that's written to use
> > atomic_read() does assume the read will not be elided by the compiler.
                                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

(so it's about compiler barrier expectations only, though I fully agree
that those who're using atomic_t as if it were some magic thing that lets
them write lockless code are sorrily mistaken.)

> So these are broken on i386 and x86-64?

Possibly, but the point is not about existing bugs, as mentioned above.

Some such bugs have been found nonetheless -- reminds me, can somebody
please apply http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/linux/kernel/810674 ?


Satyam
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