Date:	Tue, 12 May 2009 11:23:48 +0200
From:	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu>
To:	Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@...llo.nl>
Cc:	Chris Friesen <cfriesen@...tel.com>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
	David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>, linuxppc-dev@...abs.org,
	paulus@...ba.org, netdev@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: question about softirqs


* Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@...llo.nl> wrote:

> On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 10:12 +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> > * Chris Friesen <cfriesen@...tel.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > This started out as a thread on the ppc list, but on the 
> > > suggestion of DaveM and Paul Mackerras I'm expanding the receiver 
> > > list a bit.
> > > 
> > > Currently, if a softirq is raised in process context the 
> > > TIF_RESCHED_PENDING flag gets set and on return to userspace we 
> > > run the scheduler, expecting it to switch to ksoftirqd to handle 
> > > the softirqd processing.
> > > 
> > > I think I see a possible problem with this. Suppose I have a 
> > > SCHED_FIFO task spinning on recvmsg() with MSG_DONTWAIT set. Under 
> > > the scenario above, schedule() would re-run the spinning task 
> > > rather than ksoftirqd, thus preventing any incoming packets from 
> > > being sent up the stack until we get a real hardware 
> > > interrupt--which could be a whole jiffy if interrupt mitigation is 
> > > enabled in the net device.
> > 
> > TIF_RESCHED_PENDING will not be set if a SCHED_FIFO task wakes up a 
> > SCHED_OTHER ksoftirqd task. But starvation of ksoftirqd processing 
> > will occur.
> > 
> > > DaveM pointed out that if we're doing transmits we're likely to 
> > > hit local_bh_enable(), which would process the softirq work.  
> > > However, I think we may still have a problem in the above rx-only 
> > > scenario--or is it too contrived to matter?
> > 
> > This could occur, and the problem is really that task priorities do 
> > not extend across softirq work processing.
> > 
> > This could occur in ordinary SCHED_OTHER tasks as well, if the 
> > softirq is bounced to ksoftirqd - which it only should be if there's 
> > serious softirq overload - or, as you describe it above, if the 
> > softirq is raised in process context:
> > 
> >         if (!in_interrupt())
> >                 wakeup_softirqd();
> > 
> > that's not really clean. We look into eliminating process context 
> > use of raise_softirq_irqsoff(). Such code sequence:
> > 
> > 	local_irq_save(flags);
> > 	...
> > 	raise_softirq_irqsoff(nr);
> > 	...
> > 	local_irq_restore(flags);
> > 
> > should be converted to something like:
> > 
> > 	local_irq_save(flags);
> > 	...
> > 	raise_softirq_irqsoff(nr);
> > 	...
> > 	local_irq_restore(flags);
> > 	recheck_softirqs();
> > 
> > If someone does not do proper local_bh_disable()/enable() sequences 
> > for micro-optimization reasons, then push the check to after the 
> > critcal section - and dont cause extra reschedules by waking up 
> > ksoftirqd. raise_softirq_irqsoff() will also be faster.
> 
> 
> Wouldn't the even better solution be to get rid of softirqs 
> all-together?
> 
> I see the recent work by Thomas to get threaded interrupts 
> upstream as a good first step towards that goal, once the RX 
> processing is moved to a thread (or multiple threads) one can 
> priorize them in the regular sys_sched_setscheduler() way and its 
> obvious that a FIFO task above the priority of the network tasks 
> will have network starvation issues.

Yeah, that would be "nice". A single IRQ thread plus the process 
context(s) doing networking might perform well.

Multiple IRQ threads (softirq and hardirq threads mixed) i'm not so 
sure about - it's extra context-switching cost.

Btw, i noticed that using scheduling for work (packet, etc.) flow 
distribution standardizes and evens out the behavior of workloads. 
Softirq scheduling is really quite random currently. We have a 
random processing loop-limit in the core code and various batching 
and work-limit controls at individual usage sites. We sometimes 
piggyback to ksoftirqd. It's far easier to keep performance in check 
when things are more predictable.

But this is not an easy endevour, and performance regressions have 
to be expected and addressed if they occur. There can be random 
packet queuing details in networking drivers that just happen to 
work fine now, and might work worse with a kernel thread in place. 
So there has to be broad buy-in for the concept, and a concerted 
effort to eliminate softirq processing and most of hardirq 
processing by pushing those two elements into a single hardirq 
thread (and the rest into process context).

Not for the faint hearted. Nor is it recommended to be done without 
a good layer of asbestos.

	Ingo
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