Date:	Tue, 11 May 2010 20:27:25 -0400
From:	Neil Horman <nhorman@...driver.com>
To:	Jay Vosburgh <fubar@...ibm.com>
Cc:	Andy Gospodarek <andy@...yhouse.net>, netdev@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH net-next-2.6 2/2] bonding: allow user-controlled output
 slave selection

On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 01:09:39PM -0700, Jay Vosburgh wrote:
> Andy Gospodarek <andy@...yhouse.net> wrote:
> 
> >This patch give the user the ability to control the output slave for
> >round-robin and active-backup bonding.  Similar functionality was
> >discussed in the past, but Jay Vosburgh indicated he would rather see a
> >feature like this added to existing modes rather than creating a
> >completely new mode.  Jay's thoughts as well as Neil's input surrounding
> >some of the issues with the first implementation pushed us toward a
> >design that relied on the queue_mapping rather than skb marks.
> >Round-robin and active-backup modes were chosen as the first users of
> >this slave selection as they seemed like the most logical choices when
> >considering a multi-switch environment.
> >
> >Round-robin mode works without any modification, but active-backup does
> >require inclusion of the first patch in this series and setting
> >the 'keep_all' flag.  This will allow reception of unicast traffic on
> >any of the backup interfaces.
> 
> 	Yes, I did think that the mark business fit better into existing
> modes (I thought of it as kind of a new hash for xor and 802.3ad modes).
> I also didn't expect to see so much new stuff (this, as well as the FCOE
> special cases being discussed elsewhere) being shoehorned into the
> active-backup mode.  I'm not so sure that adding so many special cases
> to active-backup is a good thing.
> 
> 	Now, I'm starting to wonder if you were right, and it would be
> better overall to have a "manual" mode that would hopefully satisfy this
> case as well as the FCOE special case.  I don't think either of these is
> a bad use case, I'm just not sure the right way to handle them is
> another special knob in active-backup mode (either directly, or
> implicitly in __netif_receive_skb), which wasn't what I expected to see.
> 
I honestly don't think a separate mode is warranted here.  While I'm not opposed
to adding a new mode, I really think doing so is no different from overloading
an existing mode.  I say that because to add a new mode in which we explicitly
expect traffic to be directed to various slaves requires that we implement a
policy for frames which have no queue mapping determined on egress.  Any policy
I can think of is really an approximation of an existing policy, so we may as
well reuse the policy code that we already have in place.  About the only way a
separate mode makes sense is in the 'passthrough' queue mode you document below.
In this model, in which queue ids map to slaves in a 1:1 fashion it doesn't make
senes.


> 	I presume you're overloading active-backup because it's not
> etherchannel, 802.3ad, etc, and just talks right to the switch.  For the
> regular load balance modes, I still think overlay into the existing
> modes is preferable (more on that later); I'm thinking of "manual"
> instead of another tweak to active-backup.
> 
> 	If users want to have actual hot-standby functionality, then
> active-backup would do that, and nothing else (and it can be multi-queue
> aware, but only one slave active at a time).
> 
Yes, but active backup doesn't provide prefered output path selection in and of
itself.  Thats the feature here.

> 	Users who want the set of bonded slaves to look like a big
> multiqueue buffet could use this "manual" mode and set things up however
> they want.  One way to set it up is simply that the bond is N queues
> wide, where N is the total of the queue counts of all the slaves.  If a
> slave fails, N gets smaller, and the user code has to deal with that.
> Since the queue count of a device can't change dynamically, the bond
> would have to actually be set up with some big number of queues, and
> then only a subset is actually active (or there is some sort of wrap).
> 
> 	In such an implementation, each slave would have a range of
> queue IDs, not necessarily just one.  I'm a bit leery of exposing an API
> where each slave is one queue ID, as it could make transitioning to real
> multi-queue awareness difficult.
> 
I'm sorry, what exactly do you mean when you say 'real' multi queue
awareness?  How is this any less real than any other implementation?  The
approach you outline above isn't any more or less valid than this one.

While we're on the subject, Andy and I did discuss a model simmilar to what you
describe above (what I'll refer to as a queue id passthrough model), in which
you can tell the bonding driver to map a frame to a queue, and the bonding
driver doesn't really do anything with the queue id other than pass to the slave
device for hardware based multiqueue tx handling.  While we could do that, its
my feeling such a model isn't the way to go for two primary reasons:

1) Inconsistent behavior.  Such an implementation makes assumptions regarding
queue id specification within a driver.  For example, What if one of the slaves
reserves some fixed number of low order queues for a sepecific purpose, and as
such general use queues begin an at offset from zero, while other slaves do not.
While its easy to accomidate such needs when writing the tc filters, if a slave
fails over, such a bias would change output traffic behavior, as the bonding
driver can't be clearly informed of such a bias.  Likewise, what if a slave
driver allocates more queues than it actually supports in hardware (like the
implementation you propose, ixgbe IIRC actually does this).  If slaves handled
unimplemented tx queues different (if one wrapped queues, while the other simply
dropped frames to unimplemented queues for instance).  A failover would change
traffic patterns dramatically.

2) Need.  While (1) can pretty easily be managed with a few configuration
guidelines (output queues on slaves have to be configured identically, lets
chaos and madness befall you, etc), theres really no reason to bind users to
such a system.  We're using tc filters to set the queue id on skbs enqueued to
the bonding driver, theres absolutely no reason you can add addition filters to
the slaves directly.  Since the bonding driver uses dev_queue_xmit to send a
frame to a slave, it has the opportunity to pass through another set of queuing
diciplines and filters that can reset and re-assign the skbs queue mapping.  So
with the approach in this patch you can get both direct output control without
sacrificing actual hardware tx output queue control.  With a passthrough model,
you save a bit of filter configuration, but at the expense of having to be much
more careful about how you configure your slave nics, and detecting such errors
in configuration would be rather difficult to track down, as it would require
the generation of traffic that hit the right filter after a failover.


> 	There might also be a way to tie it in to the new RPS code on
> the receive side.
> 
> 	If the slaves all have the same MAC and attach to a single
> switch via etherchannel, then it all looks pretty much like a single big
> honkin' multiqueue device.  The switch probably won't map the flows back
> the same way, though.
> 
I agree, they probably wont.  Receive side handling wasn't really our focus here
though.  Thats largely why we chose round robin and active backup as our first
modes to use this with.  They are already written to expect frames on either
interface.

> 	If the slaves are on discrete switches (without etherchannel),
> things become more complicated.  If the slaves have the same MAC, then
> the switches will be irritated about seeing that same MAC coming in from
> multiple places.  If the slaves have different MACs, then ARP has the
> same sort of issues.
> 
> 	In thinking about it, if it's linux bonding at both ends, there
> could be any number of discrete switches in the path, and it wouldn't
> matter as long as the linux end can work things out, e.g.,
> 
>         -- switch 1 --
> hostA  /              \  hostB
> bond  ---- switch 2 ---- bond
>        \              /
>         -- switch 3 --
> 
> 	For something like this, the switches would never share MAC
> information for the bonding slaves.  The issue here then becomes more of
> detecting link failures (it would require either a "trunk failover" type
> of function on the switch, or some kind of active probe between the
> bonds).
> 
> 	Now, I realize that I'm babbling a bit, as from reading your
> description, this isn't necessarily your target topology (which sounded
> more like a case of slave A can reach only network X, and slave B can
> reach anywhere, so sending to network X should use slave A
> preferentially), or, as long as I'm doing ASCII-art,
> 
>        --- switch 1 ---- network X
> hostA /               /
> bond  ---- switch 2 -+-- anywhere
> 
> 	Is that an accurate representation?  Or is it something a bit
> different, e.g.,
> 
>        --- switch 1 ---- network X -\
> hostA /                             /
> bond  ---- switch 2 ---- anywhere --
> 
> 	I.e., the "anywhere" connects back to network X from the
> outside, so to speak.  Or, oh, maybe I'm missing it entirely, and you're
> thinking of something like this:
> 
>        --- switch 1 --- VPN --- web site
> hostA /                          /
> bond  ---- switch 2 - Internet -/
> 
> 	Where you prefer to hit "web site" via the VPN (perhaps it's a
> more efficient or secure path), but can do it from the public network at
> large if necessary.
> 
Yes, this one.  I think the other models are equally interesting, but this model
in which either path had universal reachabilty, but for some classes of traffic
one path is preferred over the other is the one we had in mind.

> 	Now, regardless of the above, your first patch ("keep_all") is
> to deal with the reverse problem, if this is a piggyback on top of
> active-backup mode: how to get packets back, when both channels can be
> active simultaneously.  That actually dovetails to a degree with work
> I've been doing lately, but the solution there probably isn't what
> you're looking for (there's a user space daemon to do path finding, and
> the "bond IP" address is piggybacked on the slaves' MAC addresses, which
> are not changed; the "bond IP" set exists in a separate subnet all its
> own).
> 
> 	As I said, I'm not convinced that the "keep_all" option to
> active-backup is really better than just a "manual" mode that lacks the
> dup suppression and expects the user to set everything up.
> 
> 	As for the round-robin change in this patch, if I'm reading it
> right, then the way it works is that the packets are round-robined,
> unless there's a queue id passed in, in which case it's assigned to the
> slave mapped to that queue id.  I'm not entirely sure why you picked
> round-robin mode for that over balance-xor; it doesn't seem to fit well
> with the description in the documentation.  Or is it just sort of a
> demonstrator?
> 
It was selected because round robin allows transmits on any interface already,
and expects frames on any interface, so it was a 'safe' choice.  I would think
balance-xor would also work.  Ideally it would be nice to get more modes
supporting this mechanism.

> 	I do like one other aspect of the patch, and that's the concept
> of overlaying the queue map on top of the balance algorithm.  So, e.g.,
> balance-xor would do its usual thing, unless the packet is queue mapped,
> in which case the packet's assignment is obeyed.  The balance-xor could
> even optionally do its xor across the full set of all slaves output
> queues instead of just across the slaves.  Round-robin can operate
> similarly.  For those modes, a "balance by queue vs. balance by slave"
> seems like a reasonable knob to have.
Not sure what you mean here.  In the model implemented by this patch, there is
one output queue per slave, and as such, balance by queue == balance by slave.
That would make sense in the model you describe earlier in this note, but not in
the model presented by this patch.

> 
> 	I do understand that you're proposing something relatively
> simple, and I'm thinking out loud about alternate or additional
> implementation details.  Some of this is "ooh ahh what if", but we also
> don't want to end up with something that's forwards incompatible, and
> I'm hoping to find one solution to multiple problems.
> 
For clarification, can you ennumerate what other problems you are trying to
solve with this feature, or features simmilar to this?  From this email, the one
that I most clearly see is the desire to allow a passthrough mode of queue
selection, which I think I've noted can be done already (even without this
patch), by attaching additional tc filters to the slaves output queues directly.
What else do you have in mind?

Thanks & Regards
Neil

> 
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