Date:	Mon, 12 Mar 2012 14:27:13 +0100
From:	Richard Weinberger <richard@....at>
To:	Pablo Neira Ayuso <pablo@...filter.org>
CC:	jengelh@...ozas.de, eric.dumazet@...il.com,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, netdev@...r.kernel.org,
	netfilter-devel@...r.kernel.org, rostedt@...dmis.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH v6] Netfilter ring buffer support

Pablo,

On 12.03.2012 14:08, Pablo Neira Ayuso wrote:
> Hi Richard,
>
> On Thu, Mar 08, 2012 at 10:02:45AM +0100, Richard Weinberger wrote:
>> On 08.03.2012 02:28, Pablo Neira Ayuso wrote:
>>> On Tue, Mar 06, 2012 at 12:19:42AM +0100, Richard Weinberger wrote:
>>>> This patch set merges ipt_LOG and ip6t_LOG and adds ring buffer support
>>>> to xt_LOG.
>>>>
>>>> Using "--ring" an user can create LOG rules which log messages into
>>>> one or more ring buffers.
>>>> Each ring buffer is represented as pipe-like file in
>>>> /proc/net/netfilter/nf_log_ring/.
>>>
>>> I've spent part of the evening testing this and checking its
>>> possibilities, the drawbacks that I see for this contribution are:
>>>
>>> * it uses the /proc entry, we have rejected similar add-ons in the
>>>    past that have used these interfaces.
>>
>> My fist implementation used sysfs/debug.
>> I've switched to /proc/net/netfilter/ to make it consistent to the other
>> netfilter stuff...
>>
>> Moving back to sysfs/debug/whatever can be done within minutes.
>>
>>> * one single reader can be reading at a time.
>>
>> In which use-cache you need two _consuming_ readers?
>
> One scenario in which two sysadmins are checking the logs to debug
> some issues seems reasonable to me.

But they don't need do to a consuming read.
As I said, I can add support for non-consuming reads...

> Anyway, my main points after testing several your buffer-ring things
> are at the bottom of this email.
>
>> Steve's ring_buffer supports also concurrent non-consuming reads.
>> I can add support for this...
>>
>>> Having said that, I still think that the feature that this provides
>>> is useful, but I think that implementing this in user-space over
>>> nfnetlink_log results in a much more flexible solution.
>>>
>>> I have made proof-of-concept daemon (it's a quick hack of several
>>> hours) that implements the similar feature over nfnetlink_log,
>>> advantages are:
>>>
>>> * You don't need to upgrade your kernel / iptables.
>>> * You only need to install libnfnetlink, libnetfilter_log and the
>>>    daemon.
>>> * It can be extended to support multiple readers.
>>>
>>> So my conclusion is that you can make this in userspace in a much more
>>> flexible way.
>>>
>>> You can find it here:
>>>
>>> http://1984.lsi.us.es/git/rlogd/
>>>
>>> The initial commit provides some description on how to use it:
>>>
>>> http://1984.lsi.us.es/git/rlogd/commit/?id=ccb88a8dc8ad674b860f2d3edabf07fe4830baf3
>>>
>>> I don't plan to develop / maintain that software. The last thing I
>>> want in my todo list is yet another thing to maintain. If someone is
>>> interested, please, feel free to grab it, make a nice website for it
>>> and maintain it.
>>>
>>> The repository also contains an unfinished patch to add LOG format
>>> support to libnetfilter_log.
>>
>> I really don't like this rlogd thing.
>>
>> 1. It's yet another random netfilter userspace component.
>> Please don't fragment it more.
>
> IMO modularity is a good thing, independent user-space components
> allow you to just upgrade the thing that you require.
>
>> Installing iptables/conntrack/ulogd/etc... is already enough PITA
>> because not all distros ship all this clustered components.
>
> I think that recompiling your kernel or even wait until your distro
> ships the new kernel with new extensions will take longer than packaging
> some small user-space software and deploying it. Not talking about
> packaging a new iptables package containing support for some new
> feature.
>
> This rlogd proof-of-concept thing (and user-space stuff in general)
> will:
>
> 1) not need any kernel update.
> 2) be very easy to make a package and to deploy.
> 3) require no Linux kernel update since NFLOG has been there since
>     long time.
>
>> 2. As I described in my very fist RLOG patch, NFLOG does not include
>> the same information.
>> You cannot derive "PHYSIN" and "PHYSOUT" from the packet header.
>
> Looking at the code, those are included if bridging is enabled.
> Otherwise, I'll be happy to take a patch for this.

Doesn't NFLOG just pass the packet header to userspace?
How can you derive meta-information like "PHYSIN" and "PHYSOUT" from the 
packet header?

Iff NFLOG is able to produce same log string like LOG does I'm fine.

>> 3. rlogd needs NFLOG which copies every packet (header) to userspace.
>> What about performance...?
>
> Reliability is also important, running things in user-space means that
> bugs will no crash your system. Instead, they may crash your logging
> daemon.
>
> What I find hard to justify is that this feature can be implemented in
> user-space with the existing netfilter logging interface.

I understand that I have no chance to fight against the "this can be 
done in userspace"-argument. :-)

Thanks,
//richard
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