Date:	Fri, 27 Feb 2015 09:53:29 +0100
From:	Jiri Pirko <jiri@...nulli.us>
To:	John Fastabend <john.r.fastabend@...el.com>
Cc:	Neil Horman <nhorman@...driver.com>, Thomas Graf <tgraf@...g.ch>,
	Simon Horman <simon.horman@...ronome.com>,
	netdev@...r.kernel.org, davem@...emloft.net, andy@...yhouse.net,
	dborkman@...hat.com, ogerlitz@...lanox.com, jesse@...ira.com,
	jpettit@...ira.com, joestringer@...ira.com, jhs@...atatu.com,
	sfeldma@...il.com, f.fainelli@...il.com, roopa@...ulusnetworks.com,
	linville@...driver.com, shrijeet@...il.com,
	gospo@...ulusnetworks.com, bcrl@...ck.org
Subject: Re: Flows! Offload them.

Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 10:11:23PM CET, john.r.fastabend@...el.com wrote:
>On 02/26/2015 12:16 PM, Neil Horman wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 07:23:36AM -0800, John Fastabend wrote:
>>> On 02/26/2015 05:33 AM, Thomas Graf wrote:
>>>> On 02/26/15 at 10:16am, Jiri Pirko wrote:
>>>>> Well, on netdev01, I believe that a consensus was reached that for every
>>>>> switch offloaded functionality there has to be an implementation in
>>>>> kernel.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. This should not prevent the policy being driven from user
>>>> space though.
>>>>
>>>>> What John's Flow API originally did was to provide a way to
>>>>> configure hardware independently of kernel. So the right way is to
>>>>> configure kernel and, if hw allows it, to offload the configuration to hw.
>>>>>
>>>>> In this case, seems to me logical to offload from one place, that being
>>>>> TC. The reason is, as I stated above, the possible conversion from OVS
>>>>> datapath to TC.
>>>>
>>>> Offloading of TC definitely makes a lot of sense. I think that even in
>>>> that case you will already encounter independent configuration of
>>>> hardware and kernel. Example: The hardware provides a fixed, generic
>>>> function to push up to n bytes onto a packet. This hardware function
>>>> could be used to implement TC actions "push_vlan", "push_vxlan",
>>>> "push_mpls". You would you would likely agree that TC should make use
>>>> of such a function even if the hardware version is different from the
>>>> software version. So I don't think we'll have a 1:1 mapping for all
>>>> configurations, regardless of whether the how is decided in kernel or
>>>> user space.
>>>
>>> Just to expand slightly on this. I don't think you can get to a 1:1
>>> mapping here. One reason is hardware typically has a TCAM and limited
>>> size. So you need a _policy_ to determine when to push rules into the
>>> hardware. The kernel doesn't know when to do this and I don't believe
>>> its the kernel's place to start enforcing policy like this. One thing I likely
>>> need to do is get some more "worlds" in rocker so we aren't stuck only
>>> thinking about the infinite size OF_DPA world. The OF_DPA world is only
>>> one world and not a terribly flexible one at that when compared with the
>>> NPU folk. So minimally you need a flag to indicate rules go into hardware
>>> vs software.
>>>
>>> That said I think the bigger mismatch between software and hardware is
>>> you program it differently because the data structures are different. Maybe
>>> a u32 example would help. For parsing with u32 you might build a parse
>>> graph with a root and some leaf nodes. In hardware you want to collapse
>>> this down onto the hardware. I argue this is not a kernel task because
>>> there are lots of ways to do this and there are trade-offs made with
>>> respect to space and performance and which table to use when it could be
>>> handled by a set of tables. Another example is a virtual switch possibly
>>> OVS but we have others. The software does some "unmasking" (there term)
>>> before sending the rules into the software dataplane cache. Basically this
>>> means we can ignore priority in the hash lookup. However this is not how you
>>> would optimally use hardware. Maybe I should do another write up with
>>> some more concrete examples.
>>>
>>> There are also lots of use cases to _not_ have hardware and software in
>>> sync. A flag allows this.
>>>
>>> My only point is I think we need to allow users to optimally use there
>>> hardware either via 'tc' or my previous 'flow' tool. Actually in my
>>> opinion I still think its best to have both interfaces.
>>>
>>> I'll go get some coffee now and hopefully that is somewhat clear.
>> 
>> 
>> I've been thinking about the policy apect of this, and the more I think about
>> it, the more I wonder if not allowing some sort of common policy in the kernel
>> is really the right thing to do here.  I know thats somewhat blasphemous, but
>> this isn't really administrative poilcy that we're talking about, at least not
>> 100%.  Its more of a behavioral profile that we're trying to enforce.  That may
>> be splitting hairs, but I think theres precidence for the latter.  That is to
>> say, we configure qdiscs to limit traffic flow to certain rates, and configure
>> policies which drop traffic that violates it (which includes random discard,
>> which is the antithesis of deterministic policy).  I'm not sure I see this as
>> any different, espcially if we limit its scope.  That is to say, why couldn't we
>> allow the kernel to program a predetermined set of policies that the admin can
>> set (i.e. offload routing to a hardware cache of X size with an lru
>> victimization).  If other well defined policies make sense, we can add them and
>> exposes options via iproute2 or some such to set them.  For the use case where
>> such pre-packaged policies don't make sense, we have things like the flow api to
>> offer users who want to be able to control their hardware in a more fine grained
>> approach.
>> 
>> Neil
>> 
>
>Hi Neil,
>
>I actually like this idea a lot. I might tweak a bit in that we could have some
>feature bits or something like feature bits that expose how to split up the
>hardware cache and give sizes.
>
>So the hypervisor (see I think of end hosts) or administrators could come in and
>say I want a route table and a nft table. This creates a "flavor" over how the
>hardware is going to be used. Another use case may not be doing routing at all
>but have an application that wants to manage the hardware at a more fine grained
>level with the exception of some nft commands so it could have a "nft"+"flow"
>flavor. Insert your favorite use case here.

I'm not sure I understand. You said that admin could say: "I want a
route table and a nft table". But how does he say it? Isn't is enough
just to insert some rules into these 2 things and that would give hw a
clue what the admin is doing and what he wants? I believe that this
offload should happen transparently.

Of course, you may want to balance resources as you said the hw capacity
is limited. But I would leave that optional. API unknown so far...

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