netdev - Re: Focusing the XDP project

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Date:   Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:04:04 -0800
From:   Tom Herbert <tom@...bertland.com>
To:     Saeed Mahameed <saeedm@....mellanox.co.il>
Cc:     David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>,
        Saeed Mahameed <saeedm@...lanox.com>,
        Alexander Duyck <alexander.duyck@...il.com>,
        Jesper Dangaard Brouer <brouer@...hat.com>,
        Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@...il.com>,
        john fastabend <john.fastabend@...il.com>,
        Linux Kernel Network Developers <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
        Brenden Blanco <bblanco@...il.com>
Subject: Re: Focusing the XDP project

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 2:40 PM, Saeed Mahameed
<saeedm@....mellanox.co.il> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:40 PM, Tom Herbert <tom@...bertland.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 8:46 AM, David Miller <davem@...emloft.net> wrote:
>>> From: Tom Herbert <tom@...bertland.com>
>>> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 08:35:41 -0800
>>>
>>>> We already have good APIs for similar datapath functionality (GRO,
>>>> GSO, xmit_more, etc.), and I don't see why XDP is so special that we
>>>> can't come up with a reasonable API for batching and implement it.
>>>
>>> What you are missing is that it wasn't always this way.
>>>
>>> The initial TSO support was a hodge-podge of weird driver APIs and
>>> simple heuristics thrown all over the place.  It was ugly but worked
>>> and allowed us to experiment.  We had to adjust driver internals
>>> a lot until on the way towards getting things how they are today.
>>>
>>> This is the natural course of things, so please don't suggest that XDP
>>> shouldn't evolve in the same way.
>>>
>>> I think we really need to be fast and loose right now and only try to
>>> constrict and perfect the API after some of this initial activity has
>>> died down.
>>>
>>> Yes it's more work for the brave drivers that add XDP support, but
>>> unfortunately that's how we figure out what's really needed and works
>>> in the long term.
>>
>> I'd be more supportive of this line of thinking if we (e.g. FB) didn't
>> have to spend the majority time over the past few months trying to
>> deal with all the complexity being thrown into drivers for all these
>> new features such as XDP. Case in point, Mellanox drivers are
>> completely non-modular and have a horrible directory structure. They
>> tried to fix, this but the patch set was rejected because it would
>> break people trying to do backports. That's a fair argument, but the
>> lesson I gather from that is that we should put more time in up front
>> thinking about how to structure code the right way instead of just
>> throwing it in and trying to deal with the consequences later.
>>
>
> I also gathered the same lesson :) I will do my best to separate
> between regular RX path and XDP-enabled RX path as much as possible in
> my next RX staging/bulking patches as the current mlx5 design allows
> me to do so with a little code duplication.
>
Separating the data paths is a major part of the problem. That means
we now have parallel paths in the system which kind of do the same
thing but in vastly different ways each of which has its own bugs and
idiosyncrasies. This makes things harder to debug and maintain (e.g.
dealing with the the striding vs. non-striding split in mlx5 was
particularly painful). Please work to unify the data path and minimize
changes in it by pushing complexity into the stack to get the required
functionality.

Tom