Date:   Wed, 18 Apr 2018 16:33:34 -0700
From:   "Samudrala, Sridhar" <sridhar.samudrala@...el.com>
To:     Siwei Liu <loseweigh@...il.com>, David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>
Cc:     David Ahern <dsahern@...il.com>, Jiri Pirko <jiri@...nulli.us>,
        si-wei liu <si-wei.liu@...cle.com>,
        "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>,
        Stephen Hemminger <stephen@...workplumber.org>,
        Alexander Duyck <alexander.h.duyck@...el.com>,
        "Brandeburg, Jesse" <jesse.brandeburg@...el.com>,
        Jakub Kicinski <kubakici@...pl>,
        Jason Wang <jasowang@...hat.com>,
        Netdev <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
        virtualization@...ts.linux-foundation.org,
        virtio-dev@...ts.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [virtio-dev] Re: [RFC PATCH 2/3] netdev: kernel-only IFF_HIDDEN
 netdevice

On 4/17/2018 5:26 PM, Siwei Liu wrote:
> I ran this with a few folks offline and gathered some good feedbacks
> that I'd like to share thus revive the discussion.
>
> First of all, as illustrated in the reply below, cloud service
> providers require transparent live migration. Specifically, the main
> target of our case is to support SR-IOV live migration via kernel
> upgrade while keeping the userspace of old distros unmodified. If it's
> because this use case is not appealing enough for the mainline to
> adopt, I will shut up and not continue discussing, although
> technically it's entirely possible (and there's precedent in other
> implementation) to do so to benefit any cloud service providers.
>
> If it's just the implementation of hiding netdev itself needs to be
> improved, such as implementing it as attribute flag or adding linkdump
> API, that's completely fine and we can look into that. However, the
> specific issue needs to be undestood beforehand is to make transparent
> SR-IOV to be able to take over the name (so inherit all the configs)
> from the lower netdev, which needs some games with uevents and name
> space reservation. So far I don't think it's been well discussed.
>
> One thing in particular I'd like to point out is that the 3-netdev
> model currently missed to address the core problem of live migration:
> migration of hardware specific feature/state, for e.g. ethtool configs
> and hardware offloading states. Only general network state (IP
> address, gateway, for eg.) associated with the bypass interface can be
> migrated. As a follow-up work, bypass driver can/should be enhanced to
> save and apply those hardware specific configs before or after
> migration as needed. The transparent 1-netdev model being proposed as
> part of this patch series will be able to solve that problem naturally
> by making all hardware specific configurations go through the central
> bypass driver, such that hardware configurations can be replayed when
> new VF or passthrough gets plugged back in. Although that
> corresponding function hasn't been implemented today, I'd like to
> refresh everyone's mind that is the core problem any live migration
> proposal should have addressed.
>
> If it would make things more clear to defer netdev hiding until all
> functionalities regarding centralizing and replay are implemented,
> we'd take advices like that and move on to implementing those features
> as follow-up patches. Once all needed features get done, we'd resume
> the work for hiding lower netdev at that point. Think it would be the
> best to make everyone understand the big picture in advance before
> going too far.

I think we should get the 3-netdev model integrated and add any additional
ndo_ops/ethool ops that we would like to support/migrate before looking into
hiding the lower netdevs.


>
> Thanks, comments welcome.
>
> -Siwei
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:48 PM, Siwei Liu <loseweigh@...il.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 8, 2018 at 9:32 AM, David Miller <davem@...emloft.net> wrote:
>>> From: Siwei Liu <loseweigh@...il.com>
>>> Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 19:32:05 -0700
>>>
>>>> And I assume everyone here understands the use case for live
>>>> migration (in the context of providing cloud service) is very
>>>> different, and we have to hide the netdevs. If not, I'm more than
>>>> happy to clarify.
>>> I think you still need to clarify.
>> OK. The short answer is cloud users really want *transparent* live migration.
>>
>> By being transparent it means they don't and shouldn't care about the
>> existence and the occurence of live migration, but they do if
>> userspace toolstack and libraries have to be updated or modified,
>> which means potential dependency brokeness of their applications. They
>> don't like any change to the userspace envinroment (existing apps
>> lift-and-shift, no recompilation, no re-packaging, no re-certification
>> needed), while no one barely cares about ABI or API compatibility in
>> the kernel level, as long as their applications don't break.
>>
>> I agree the current bypass solution for SR-IOV live migration requires
>> guest cooperation. Though it doesn't mean guest *userspace*
>> cooperation. As a matter of fact, techinically it shouldn't invovle
>> userspace at all to get SR-IOV migration working. It's the kernel that
>> does the real work. If I understand the goal of this in-kernel
>> approach correctly, it was meant to save userspace from modification
>> or corresponding toolstack support, as those additional 2 interfaces
>> is more a side product of this approach, rather than being neccessary
>> for users to be aware of. All what the user needs to deal with is one
>> single interface, and that's what they care about. It's more a trouble
>> than help when they see 2 extra interfaces are present. Management
>> tools in the old distros don't recoginze them and try to bring up
>> those extra interfaces for its own. Various odd warnings start to spew
>> out, and there's a lot of caveats for the users to get around...
>>
>> On the other hand, if we "teach" those cloud users to update the
>> userspace toolstack just for trading a feature they don't need, no one
>> is likely going to embrace the change. As such there's just no real
>> value of adopting this in-kernel bypass facility for any cloud service
>> provider. It does not look more appealing than just configure generic
>> bonding using its own set of daemons or scripts. But again, cloud
>> users don't welcome that facility. And basically it would get to
>> nearly the same set of problems if leaving userspace alone.
>>
>> IMHO we're not hiding the devices, think it the way we're adding a
>> feature transparent to user. Those auto-managed slaves are ones users
>> don't care about much. And user is still able to see and configure the
>> lower netdevs if they really desires to do so. But generally the
>> target user for this feature won't need to know that. Why they care
>> how many interfaces a VM virtually has rather than how many interfaces
>> are actually _useable_ to them??
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Siwei
>>
>>
>>> netdevs are netdevs.  If they have special attributes, mark them as
>>> such and the tools base their actions upon that.
>>>
>>> "Hiding", or changing classes, doesn't make any sense to me still.
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