Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 19:09:57 -0700
From: Jakub Kicinski <kuba@...nel.org>
To: David Ahern <dsahern@...nel.org>
Cc: Willem de Bruijn <willemdebruijn.kernel@...il.com>, Mina Almasry
 <almasrymina@...gle.com>, netdev@...r.kernel.org, Eric Dumazet
 <edumazet@...gle.com>, Paolo Abeni <pabeni@...hat.com>, Jesper Dangaard
 Brouer <hawk@...nel.org>, Ilias Apalodimas <ilias.apalodimas@...aro.org>,
 Magnus Karlsson <magnus.karlsson@...el.com>, sdf@...gle.com, Willem de
 Bruijn <willemb@...gle.com>, Kaiyuan Zhang <kaiyuanz@...gle.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v2 02/11] netdev: implement netlink api to bind
 dma-buf to netdevice

On Thu, 17 Aug 2023 19:33:47 -0600 David Ahern wrote:
> [ sorry for the delayed response; very busy 2 days ]

Tell me about it :)

> On 8/16/23 10:12 AM, Willem de Bruijn wrote:
> > Jakub Kicinski wrote:  
> >> Let's start sketching out the design for queue config.
> >> Without sliding into scope creep, hopefully.
> >>
> >> Step one - I think we can decompose the problem into:
> >>  A) flow steering
> >>  B) object lifetime and permissions
> >>  C) queue configuration (incl. potentially creating / destroying queues)
> >>
> >> These come together into use scenarios like:
> >>  #1 - partitioning for containers - when high perf containers share
> >>       a machine each should get an RSS context on the physical NIC
> >>       to have predictable traffic<>CPU placement, they may also have
> >>       different preferences on how the queues are configured, maybe
> >>       XDP, too?  
> 
> subfunctions are a more effective and simpler solution for containers, no?

Maybe, subfunctions offload a lot, let's not go too far into the weeds
on production and flexibility considerations but they wouldn't be my
first choice.

> >>  #2 - fancy page pools within the host (e.g. huge pages)
> >>  #3 - very fancy page pools not within the host (Mina's work)
> >>  #4 - XDP redirect target (allowing XDP_REDIRECT without installing XDP
> >>       on the target)
> >>  #5 - busy polling - admittedly a bit theoretical, I don't know of
> >>       anyone busy polling in real life, but one of the problems today
> >>       is that setting it up requires scraping random bits of info from
> >>       sysfs and a lot of hoping.
> >>
> >> Flow steering (A) is there today, to a sufficient extent, I think,
> >> so we can defer on that. Sooner or later we should probably figure
> >> out if we want to continue down the unruly path of TC offloads or
> >> just give up and beef up ethtool.  
> 
> Flow steering to TC offloads -- more details on what you were thinking here?

I think TC flower can do almost everything ethtool -N can.
So do we continue to developer for both APIs or pick one?

> >> I don't have a good sense of what a good model for cleanup and
> >> permissions is (B). All I know is that if we need to tie things to
> >> processes netlink can do it, and we shouldn't have to create our
> >> own FS and special file descriptors...  
> 
> From my perspective the main sticking point that has not been handled is
> flushing buffers from the RxQ, but there is 100% tied to queue
> management and a process' ability to effect a flush or queue tear down -
> and that is the focus of your list below:

If you're thinking about it from the perspective of "application died
give me back all the buffers" - the RxQ is just one piece, right?
As we discovered with page pool - packets may get stuck in stack for
ever.

> >> And then there's (C) which is the main part to talk about.
> >> The first step IMHO is to straighten out the configuration process.
> >> Currently we do:
> >>
> >>  user -> thin ethtool API --------------------> driver
> >>                               netdev core <---'
> >>
> >> By "straighten" I mean more of a:
> >>
> >>  user -> thin ethtool API ---> netdev core ---> driver
> >>
> >> flow. This means core maintains the full expected configuration,
> >> queue count and their parameters and driver creates those queues
> >> as instructed.
> >>
> >> I'd imagine we'd need 4 basic ops:
> >>  - queue_mem_alloc(dev, cfg) -> queue_mem
> >>  - queue_mem_free(dev, cfg, queue_mem)
> >>  - queue_start(dev, queue info, cfg, queue_mem) -> errno
> >>  - queue_stop(dev, queue info, cfg)
> >>
> >> The mem_alloc/mem_free takes care of the commonly missed requirement to
> >> not take the datapath down until resources are allocated for new config.  
> 
> sounds reasonable.
> 
> >>
> >> Core then sets all the queues up after ndo_open, and tears down before
> >> ndo_stop. In case of an ethtool -L / -G call or enabling / disabling XDP
> >> core can handle the entire reconfiguration dance.  
> 
> `ethtool -L/-G` and `ip link set {up/down}` pertain to the "general OS"
> queues managed by a driver for generic workloads and networking
> management (e.g., neigh discovery, icmp, etc). The discussions here
> pertains to processes wanting to use their own memory or GPU memory in a
> queue. Processes will come and go and the queue management needs to
> align with that need without affecting all of the other queues managed
> by the driver.

For sure, I'm just saying that both the old uAPI can be translated to
the new driver API, and so should the new uAPIs. I focused on the
driver facing APIs because I think that it's the hard part. We have
many drivers, the uAPI is more easily dreamed up, no?

> >> The cfg object needs to contain all queue configuration, including 
> >> the page pool parameters.
> >>
> >> If we have an abstract model of the configuration in the core we can
> >> modify it much more easily, I hope. I mean - the configuration will be
> >> somewhat detached from what's instantiated in the drivers.
> >>
> >> I'd prefer to go as far as we can without introducing a driver callback
> >> to "check if it can support a config change", and try to rely on
> >> (static) capabilities instead. This allows more of the validation to
> >> happen in the core and also lends itself naturally to exporting the
> >> capabilities to the user.
> >>
> >> Checking the use cases:
> >>
> >>  #1 - partitioning for containers - storing the cfg in the core gives
> >>       us a neat ability to allow users to set the configuration on RSS
> >>       context
> >>  #2, #3 - page pools - we can make page_pool_create take cfg and read whatever
> >>       params we want from there, memory provider, descriptor count, recycling
> >>       ring size etc. Also for header-data-split we may want different settings
> >>       per queue so again cfg comes in handy
> >>  #4 - XDP redirect target - we should spawn XDP TX queues independently from
> >>       the XDP configuration
> >>
> >> That's all I have thought up in terms of direction.
> >> Does that make sense? What are the main gaps? Other proposals?  
> > 
> > More on (A) and (B):
> > 
> > I expect most use cases match the containerization that you mention.
> > Where a privileged process handles configuration.
> > 
> > For that, the existing interfaces of ethtool -G/-L-/N/-K/-X suffice.
> > 
> > A more far-out approach could infer the ntuple 5-tuple connection or
> > 3-tuple listener rule from a socket itself, no ethtool required. But
> > let's ignore that for now.
> > 
> > Currently we need to use ethtool -X to restrict the RSS indirection
> > table to a subset of queues. It is not strictly necessary to
> > reconfigure the device on each new container, if pre-allocation a
> > sufficient set of non-RSS queues.  
> 
> This is an interesting approach: This scheme here is along the lines of
> you have N cpus in the server, so N queue sets (or channels). The
> indirection table means M queue sets are used for RSS leaving N-M queues
> for flows with "fancy memory providers". Such a model can work but it is
> quite passive, needs careful orchestration and has a lot of moving,
> disjointed pieces - with some race conditions around setup vs first data
> packet arriving.
> 
> I was thinking about a more generic design where H/W queues are created
> and destroyed - e.g., queues unique to a process which makes the cleanup
> so much easier.

FWIW what Willem describes is what we were telling people to do for
AF_XDP for however many years it existed.

> > Then only ethtool -N is needed to drive data towards one of the
> > non-RSS queues. Or one of the non context 0 RSS contexts if that is
> > used.
> > 
> > The main part that is missing is memory allocation. Memory is stranded
> > on unused queues, and there is no explicit support for special
> > allocators.
> > 
> > A poor man's solution might be to load a ring with minimal sized
> > buffers (assuming devices accept that, say a zero length buffer),
> > attach a memory provider before inserting an ntuple rule, and refill
> > from the memory provider. This requires accepting that a whole ring of
> > packets is lost before refilled slots get filled..
> > 
> > (I'm messing with that with AF_XDP right now: a process that xsk_binds
> >  before filling the FILL queue..)
> > 
> > Ideally, we would have a way to reconfigure a single queue, without
> > having to down/up the entire device..
> > 
> > I don't know if the kernel needs an explicit abstract model, or can
> > leave that to the userspace privileged daemon that presses the ethtool
> > buttons.  
> 
> The kernel has that in the IB verbs S/W APIs. Yes, I realize that
> comment amounts to profanity on this mailing list, but it should not be.
> There are existing APIs for creating, managing and destroying queues -
> open source, GPL'ed, *software* APIs that are open for all to use.
> 
> That said, I have no religion here. If the netdev stack wants new APIs
> to manage queues - including supplying buffers - drivers will have APIs
> that can be adapted to some new ndo to create, configure, and destroy
> queues. The ethtool API can be updated to manage that. Ultimately I
> believe anything short of dynamic queue management will be a band-aid
> approach that will have a lot of problems.

No religion here either, but the APIs we talk about are not
particularly complex. Having started hacking things together 
with page pools, huge pages, RSS etc - IMHO the reuse and convergence
would be very superficial.

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