phc-discussions - Re: [PHC] Initial hashing function. Feedback welcome

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite for Android: free password hash cracker in your pocket

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 00:29:42 +0400
From: Solar Designer <solar@...nwall.com>
To: discussions@...sword-hashing.net
Subject: Re: [PHC] Initial hashing function. Feedback welcome

On Sat, Jan 04, 2014 at 06:14:26AM -0500, Bill Cox wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 3:19 AM, Solar Designer <solar@...nwall.com> wrote:
> > I think what helped the optimizer is your addition of lots of
> > parallelism (way too much for current CPUs, in fact).  The sequential
> > nature of reads allows PAGE_LENGTH to be beyond L1 data cache size.
> >
> > I think it'd be better to have random reads, keep PAGE_LENGTH*3*2 within
> > L1 data cache size, and have just enough parallelism for current and
> > near-future CPUs (preferably, have it tunable).  Also, make it SIMD
> > friendly (tricky with random reads - would need to make them the size of
> > a SIMD vector, so that you don't require gather loads).
> 
> I'll play around with hashing within the page, but I honestly don't think
> it's needed for improving the hashing.

Not for improving the hashing, but for defeating attacks with
pre-existing devices such as GPUs, especially with use cases where the
total running time is very limited.

> The data in memory is already
> hashed well enough.  Trying to make it SIMD friendly while simultaneously
> trying to make it unfriendly for a GPU or FPGA are opposing goals,

Sort of.  However, if a CPU can perform random 128-bit lookups as fast
as random 32-bit lookups (e.g. 1 cycle/lookup either way), then going
for 128-bit does not make the KDF _relatively_ any more GPU friendly.

> when in reality it's memory bandwidth that really counts.

Not when we try to be more CPU than e.g. GPU friendly, since memory
bandwidth available for CPUs is currently a few times lower.

> I converted it to 32-bit, and it runs exactly the same speed as before.  I
> guess in that case I'll leave it 32-bit so that it will be more SIMD
> friendly and 32-bit processor friendly.  I feel a lot better about those 32
> bit multiplies.

OK.  I have mixed feelings about this.

Another SIMD-friendliness aspect is how those SIMD accesses would be
aligned.  You seem to be using inputs that have different (off by one)
alignment than outputs.

Alexander