Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 22:48:23 +0400
From: Solar Designer <solar@...nwall.com>
To: discussions@...sword-hashing.net
Subject: Re: [PHC] Scrypt can have highest time*average memory cost

On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 01:01:36AM +0400, Solar Designer wrote:
> However, what if we normalize for defender's time per hash computed?
> When we do that, it turns out that scrypt reaches its highest normalized
> AT cost at 2*N (just the way it's defined), but yescrypt (yes, that's
> the new name) reaches the highest normalized AT cost (1.5 that of
> scrypt) at 4/3*N (and it drops to 4/3 of scrypt's at 2*N), and other
> schemes where the entire arena is randomly accessed while being filled
> (no sliding-power-of-2) potentially/theoretically reach the highest
> normalized AT cost (twice that of scrypt!) at N (no need for SMix's
> second loop at all, then - it only hurts this potential/theoretical
> highest normalized AT cost).
> 
> When I say potential/theoretical, I mean that in those cases (unlike in
> current yescrypt) other factors appear, which may negatively affect the
> AT cost to real-world attackers: non-uniform distribution of accesses
> (allowing for potentially beneficial use of 2+ types of memory with
> different access speed or/and area or/and dollar cost), maybe slightly
> fewer different memory locations being read.  I previously wrote about
> those issues.  There are a few other considerations as well, including
> peak memory usage cost to defender (which the defender must provide
> capacity for, including for the worst case of highest concurrency and
> most unfortunate (de)sync).

Regarding "maybe slightly fewer different memory locations being read",
I just ran simulations similar to:

http://www.openwall.com/lists/crypt-dev/2013/11/25/3

Specifically, I made the program stop at 4/3*N for the
sliding-power-of-2 algorithm.  I also made it stop at 1.5*N for the
modulo division (and for a trivial alternative of it called "wrap"
here), just out of curiosity.  I already had the hit rate percentage
output at time N (inbetween the two loops) in the previous program
revision (and that's the optimal stop point for the modulo division).

The new results show that sliding-power-of-2 achieves a hit rate of 69%
at its optimal stop point (4/3*N), whereas scrypt achieves only 63% at
its 2*N time, whereas the modulo division achieves only 50% at its
optimal stop point of N, and it achieves ~69.7% at 1.5*N (beyond
sliding-power-of-2's optimal stop point).

So comparing these algorithms, sliding-power-of-2 is actually best in
terms of hit rate, even with the earlier stop (than what I was testing
before).  It is plausible that Bill's cubed distribution would work
better yet, though.  I did not try it yet (and don't have time to do
that now).

classic
B' = 292735ce775aaef5
t_cost = 2097152
at_cost1 = 1073741824 at_cost2 = 549755813888 at_cost = 550829555712
at_cost1/t = 512 at_cost2/t = 262144 at_cost/t = 262656
total: nhits=663284 (63.26%) mhits=9

loop1_pow2(N2 = N/1)
loop1: nhits=595349 (56.78%) mhits=10
B' = d9247fb08f9e807c
t_cost = 2097152
at_cost1 = 183251937963 at_cost2 = 549755813888 at_cost = 733007751851
at_cost1/t = 87381 at_cost2/t = 262144 at_cost/t = 349525
total: nhits=882412 (84.15%) mhits=13

loop1_pow2(N2 = N/3)
loop1: nhits=595349 (56.78%) mhits=10
B' = 89be57ce3a548730
t_cost = 1398101
at_cost1 = 183251937963 at_cost2 = 183251763200 at_cost = 366503701163
at_cost1/t = 131072 at_cost2/t = 131072 at_cost/t = 262144
total: nhits=724167 (69.06%) mhits=11

loop1_wrap(N2 = N/1)
loop1: nhits=456640 (43.55%) mhits=24
B' = b7283d0ff61c6599
t_cost = 2097152
at_cost1 = 274877644800 at_cost2 = 549755813888 at_cost = 824633458688
at_cost1/t = 131072 at_cost2/t = 262144 at_cost/t = 393216
total: nhits=830413 (79.19%) mhits=24

loop1_wrap(N2 = N/2)
loop1: nhits=456640 (43.55%) mhits=24
B' = d2070a62b8aaaadd
t_cost = 1572864
at_cost1 = 274877644800 at_cost2 = 274877906944 at_cost = 549755551744
at_cost1/t = 174762 at_cost2/t = 174763 at_cost/t = 349525
total: nhits=689410 (65.75%) mhits=24

loop1_mod(N2 = N/1)
loop1: nhits=524257 (50.00%) mhits=21
B' = 2365d32db26bfc21
t_cost = 2097152
at_cost1 = 274877644800 at_cost2 = 549755813888 at_cost = 824633458688
at_cost1/t = 131072 at_cost2/t = 262144 at_cost/t = 393216
total: nhits=855632 (81.60%) mhits=22

loop1_mod(N2 = N/2)
loop1: nhits=524257 (50.00%) mhits=21
B' = 53d65e2fe1ff8ddd
t_cost = 1572864
at_cost1 = 274877644800 at_cost2 = 274877906944 at_cost = 549755551744
at_cost1/t = 174762 at_cost2/t = 174763 at_cost/t = 349525
total: nhits=730298 (69.65%) mhits=22

For exact definitions of these algorithms, see the program at the URL
above.  It has not changed except for the lower iteration count in the
second loop in some of these tests (marked with "N2 = N/3" and "N2 =
N/2" as appropriate).

Alexander

Powered by blists - more mailing lists