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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 15:36:32 -0400
From: Erik Aronesty <erik@....com>
To: discussions@...sword-hashing.net
Subject: Re: [PHC] Fwd: memory-hard password hashing

It is precisely vertcoin's experience with botnets that would lead me to
want a GPU-friendly solution instead.   Represents a middle-ground.
"Lyra2RE" seems to be GPU-friendly, but also not sufficiently ASIC
resistant.

Maybe something that uses parallel FLOPs might be ideal for maximizing GPU
utility.   Sequential memory-hard operations seem to target CPUs in a way
that would not be ideal in situations where botnet attacks are a concern.



On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:38 PM, Dean Pierce <pierce403@...il.com> wrote:

> Personally I think "GPU friendly" is not a great thing for passwords,
> since GPUs are asymmetrically more popular with attackers, but you might be
> interested in checking out the "Vertcoin" project: https://vertcoin.org/
>
> It's a cryptocoin, similar to Bitcoin, with the gimmick that they have
> always tried to target the GPU mining audience.  Their proof of work
> started out with an adaptive N scrypt algorithm, but when KnC released
> scrypt ASICs, they pivoted to a modified Lyra2, at which point a large
> botnet took control of most of the mining power, and they pivoted again
> with a Lyra2 more finely tuned for modern GPUs.
>
> I think the ideal goal for password algorithms is CPU friendly, where the
> most efficient machinery for calculating the hash is a commodity CPU.  At
> that point, you could roll your own ASICs, but they wouldn't be much better
> than what you could just pick up at Best Buy, and you'd lose out on the
> economies of scale that CPU vendors have.
>
>   - DEAN
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Erik Aronesty <erik@....com> wrote:
>
>> There is a focus on memory-hard algorithms in password hashing, since
>> that renders them ASIC/GPU resistant.
>>
>> However, it is /possible/ for an ASIC to be tightly coupled with DRAM in
>> ways that can exceed PC memory performance.
>>
>> Instead, is there an algorithm that is "very GPU friendly"?
>>
>> GPU's are cheap, common and highly optimized for certain operations in
>> ways that make the construction of ASICs that beat them at what they are
>> best at very unlikely.   They are, essentially, "floating point matrix
>> operation ASICs".
>>
>> Yes, this means that servers using such a mechanism may want to have GPUs
>> installed to reduce hashing times and allow a larger number of operations
>> to increase hashing security.   But I think this is a reasonable request
>> for many applications.
>>
>> If it takes 10 milliseconds to compute a single hash with highly parallel
>> FLOPs on a modern GPU, that affords a massive amount of security for a hash
>> - ASIC resistant in ways that memory-hard algorithms cannot be.
>>
>> Is there an algorithm that already lends itself to this kind of
>> application?
>>
>>
>

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