Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20050901163850.01cf53b0@web10198.securesites.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:41:42 -0400
From: Keith Oxenrider <koxenrider@...-biotech.com>
To: <liudieyu@...rella.name>, <bugtraq@...urityfocus.com>
Subject: Re: secure client-side platform


Something I have discussed with a friend but not explored wrt technical 
feasiblity is a micro kernel residing in the system bios that emulates the 
hardware it is residing on.  I believe under those circumstances it would 
be impossible to prove you had a secure system without having an external 
way of verifying the bios instructions.  This idea came to me when I read 
about some bios chip that had 8 MB of memory; plenty to fit a micro Linux 
kernel with room to spare.

Keith Oxenrider, CISSP

At 03:24 AM 9/1/2005 +0000, liudieyu@...rella.name wrote:


>#1, we are talking about how to do critical secret communication in a secure
>way, right? so forget about those putting win9x 24/7 on DSL ... let them
>continue contributing to the spam and zombie business ;-)
>
>imagine i'm going to access an e-gold acocunt of $1M ...
>     first i unplug the network cable and remove harddrive;
>     then boot with a clean livecd;
>     later start firewall and then plug the network cable;
>     run "mozilla-firefox about:blank";
>     directly go to HTTPS-secured website;
>     once done, reboot.
>i cannot figure out what could go wrong in the above process ...
>
>clean read-only OS is a solution against "once owned, stay owned" (trojan
>stays in system until next format)
>
>it does not solve the problem of the vulnerabilities in client software like
>mozilla (as joxean and keith suggested)
>
>if we only have encryption-secured connection to trusted server,
>assuming enemy do not have control over the trusted server itself,
>our computer can only be compromised if:
>      * enemy have total control over the communication channel
>        between us and the trusted server
>      * AND
>        - there is a vulnerability in the certificate/publickey
>          verification process of client software like mozilla
>        - OR the mathematic foundation of publickey-privatekey
>          sign/encrypt trick got a problem.
>        - OR we clicked YES in the
>          certificate-is-invalid-continue-or-not dialog
>      * AND
>       enemy got vulnerability to exploit after going thru the
>       certificate verification process taken in our side.
>
>chances are rare, hum? the very last sentence of my trooseid article is:
>Never touch any not-encryption-secured connection during a
>secret-communication op.
>you read it, right?
>
>Q: can you really trust Google?
>A: it's really up to you which server you choose to store and transfer
>encrypted secrets. in my view, the Gmail service of google is just a good
>example here ... you got service better than google's gmail, of course go
>ahead ... )
>
>honestly, i have not used the tools mentioned in the "why not ... " part
>below. it gonna take some time to evaluate those solutions by myself.
>
>####################
>
>"you got a problem"
>*** 1 ***
>          Joxean Koret <joxeankoret@...oo.es>
>  [+] I think this is a bad idea. What about client software vulnerabilities?
>You can have a system that were secure but
>
>currently it's not.
>  [+] Various applications, such as web browsers, mail clients, etc... 
> needs to
>be constantly updated to fix the newest
>
>vulnerabilities.
>*** 2 ***
>          "Keith Oxenrider" <web10198@...-biotech.com>
>  [+] I am sure you will be hearing this from many others, but basically it is
>impossible to secure client side computing if
>
>the client every goes outside of your control (one presumes that if it remains
>inside your control you have effective
>
>controls).  Clearly, server side computing is entirely within the control of
>whomsoever owns (or 0wns) the server, so there
>
>is implicit trust when you connect (can you really trust Google to protect
>your content?).
>  [+] While your recommendations, if used, will obviously increase the 
> baseline
>security of the average person, you can't
>
>guarentee anything.  Smart card developers run into many of these issues and
>they don't have to deal with buggy commodity OSs
>
>and browsers.  Since the vast majority of users don't even bother to keep
>their machines patched (people STILL use Win9x
>
>connected 24/7 to DSL, btw), offering suggestions on how to make their
>computer even more difficult to use is unlikely to win
>
>any converts.
>  [+] Those of us who are already paranoid and have done their homework know
>there is no way to ensure on-line security
>
>besides never doing anything on-line.
>  [+] Something to keep in mind, a read-only OS is only as good as its patch
>level when it was written and will decay with
>
>time eventually (soon) reaching an insecure state that can easily be 
>penatrated.
>
>
>"why not ..."
>*** 1 ***
>          Joxean Koret <joxeankoret@...oo.es>
>Why not use a system like LTSP (Linux Terminal Server Project) or any other
>"Think Client" based system?
>*** 2 ***
>          "Beauford, Jason" <jbeauford@...htInOnePet.com>
>Tinfoil Hat linux ..silly.  http://tinfoilhat.shmoo.com/
>*** 3 ***
>          "Gustavo Paredes" <gustavo.paredes@...ernet-solutions.com.co>
>Do you know secuware? www.secuware.com
>
>####################
>
>how to have a secure client-side platform for secret communication?
>     ... transferring and storing secret messages, online banking, etc
>
>i got some fresh ideas in mind, and would like to share it here:
>0. watch network with sniffer, so be sure no byte is sent to weird 
>destinations
>1. read-only operating system(knoppix, etc), so every boot is a fresh start
>2. get every secret processed in memory and stored as encrypted in remote 
>server
>
>any suggesion or fresh idea on this topic is welcome
>
>this document for ordinary people on the street:
>http://umbrella.name/upid/trooseid
>
>bugtraq guys can directly go to the conclusion part:
>http://umbrella.name/computer/trooseid/trooseid_online/#conclusion

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