Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 08:36:21 -0600
From: "Benson, Sean M" <BensonS@...te.gov>
To: "Anthony Cicalla" <Anthony.Cicalla@...kServ.com>,
	<self-destruction@...best.com>, <bugtraq@...urityfocus.com>
Subject: RE: Vulnerabilites in new laws on computer hacking


You know, This may be a little hard to follow but I think I can tie it
together with piracy.

 A lot of persons commenting mentioned the lack of skill due to the
legal ramifications of "practice".
So you have persons with actual skill in penetration and then those
without due to the legal rules in place where you live.

I work outside the U.S. and can pick up any flavor of server OS in the
street for pennies.
I can also purchase Database programs, graphic editors, and most every
software suite for a couple o' bucks.

Take an average 18 year old aspiring geek.
If, I'm.. say living in India, Russia, or really anywhere outside of the
U.S./E.U.
I can go down the corner, purchase, and get actual time working with,
for example, Microshaft Visual Studio XX @ for $2.00.
So, I'm 18 and I've got 4 years experience working with the suite.

If I'm in Ohio, I have to pony up for it myself, (expensive), wait until
I'm hired to work with that software, (with no experience), or learn on
the warez version and take the risk of getting busted.

How does the kid from Ohio compete? He does so unevenly.

There needs to be a comparatively even playing field for competition in
the world arena. Or we shouldn't play.
It's a butt-kicking contest and we are the only team not allowed to wear
shoes.

If I live in Russia, it's bad to hack, but chances are, If I don't make
Pravda, I won't get into too much trouble.
In the U.S. they are trying to equate screwing with someone's php page
and adding "| Ru|3" with detonating a car bomb.

That sounds fair.
Geesh.












-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Cicalla [mailto:Anthony.Cicalla@...kServ.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:32 PM
To: 'self-destruction@...best.com'; bugtraq@...urityfocus.com
Subject: RE: Vulnerabilites in new laws on computer hacking

I would have to say that I agree with you in what you have said.  I am a
young security professional with a cissp, but growing up I did not have
the $ to be able to purchase vmware and all the software to setup a test
environment. I also bet that most of you between ages 12 - 16 had the
minimum 500.00 for a pc and another 300.00 for vmware and the list goes
on and on.  To learn computer / network security is expensive and the
materials are costly in a lot of situations. If we are going to make
stricter laws why do we not have something setup for more positive
learning.  Maybe a sponsored couple of sites to teach this and be legal
targets for script kiddies. Just some of my thoughts on the matter.
After saying this I don't support illegal activities but if we want the
kids to learn and not go to jail  for being curious then we as a
community need to look at this and provide a positive outlet for this
type of activity.

-----Original Message-----
From: self-destruction@...best.com [mailto:self-destruction@...best.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 8:35 AM
To: bugtraq@...urityfocus.com
Subject: Vulnerabilites in new laws on computer hacking


It'd be interesting to see if this post gets approved by the moderators
of bugtraq.

As all of you know, this forum (bugtraq) is constantly monitored not
only by crackers and infosec professionals, but also by government and
law-enforcement agencies.

The reason why I'm posting this message is because I'd like to bring
attention to the new laws on hacking.

As everyone knows, laws on computer hacking are going tougher. There are
however, some negative consequences.

"Advanced societies" are updating computer crime laws faster than the
rest of the world. This means that new generations of these more
"advanced societies" will have no clue about how remote computer attacks
are carried out. Future generations of security "experts" will be among
the most ignorant in the history of computer security.

New generations of teenagers will be scared of doing online exploration.
I'm not talking about damaging other companies' computer systems. I'm
talking about accessing them illegally *without* revealing private
information to the public or harming any data that has been accessed. To
me, there is a big difference between these two types of attacks but I
don't think that judges feel the same way. Furthermore, I don't even
think that judges understand the difference.

Now, I'm not saying that I support accessing computer systems illegally.
All I'm saying is that by implementing very strict laws on "hacking", we
will create a generation of ignorant security professionals. I think to
myself, how the hell will these "more advanced societies" protect
themselves against cyber attacks in the future?

These new tougher computer laws will, in my opinion, have a tremendous
negative impact in the defense of these "advanced societies". It almost
feels to me like we're destroying ourselves.

I know what you're thinking. You can learn about security attacks by
setting up you're own controlled environment and attacking it yourself.
Well, what I say is that this approach *does* certainly make you a
better attacker, but nothing can be compared to attacking systems in
real world scenarios.

Now, I personally know many pentesters and I can say that most of them
*do* cross the line sometimes when doing online exploration in their own
free time. However, these guys would *never* harm anything or leak any
sensitive information to the public. That's because they love what they
do, and have very strong ethical values when it comes to privacy. 

I would say that most pentesters are "grey hats", rather than "white
hats".
In fact, I believe that the terms white and black hat are completely
artificial because we all have different sides. The human mind is not
binary, like black or white, it's something fuzzy instead, with many
layers.
The terms white and black hat were, in my opinion, created by business
people to point out who the "good guys" and "bad buys" are.

If I was the technical director of a computer security testing company I
would try to find pentesters that are not malicious, but that do cross
the line sometimes but at the same time, know when it's a good time to
stop exploring. 

If you hire someone that has never broken into a system, this guy will
not be able to produce valuable reports for customers because he will
not be able to find vulnerabilities that can't be found running a
scanner.

In summary, I'd like governments of the world to rethink their strategy
when fighting computer crime. Extremism never worked and never will.

Remember, many of today's script kiddies will be the infosec
professionals of tomorrow.

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