Message-ID: <43FE3105.9090306@snosoft.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:02:45 -0500
From: Simon Smith <simon@...soft.com>
To: jasonc@...ence.org
Cc: security-basics@...urityfocus.com,
	Full-Disclosure <full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk>,
	fla.linux@...il.com, bugtraq@...urityfocus.com,
	Craig Wright <cwright@...syd.com.au>
Subject: Re: Re: How hackers cause damage... was
	Vulnerabilites in new laws on computer hacking


Jason Coombs wrote:
> Craig Wright wrote:
> > Cyber-trespass leaves one in a state of doubt. It is commonly stated
> > that the only manner of recovery from a system compromise is to
> > rebuild the host.
>
> Don't you mean that the trespass disrupts the condition of denial and
> neglect that normally exists surrounding any network of programmable
> computers?
>
> The 'state of doubt' is no different post-trespass than it was
> beforehand, what has changed is the emotional condition of the
> property owner. After recovery steps to rebuild the host, there is
> again a 'state of doubt' and it is just as substantial as it was
> before the trespass incident caused everyone emotional trauma.
I disagree here. If you are suggesting that everyone lives in a 'state
of doubt' then you are incorrect. Fact is, many people don't understand
that a threat even exists. Those people live in ignorance, and as such,
there is no 'state of doubt', there is just bliss.

> We must build computer systems that separate the act of installing and
> executing software from the act of depositing data on read/write media.
What the heck are you talking about? We must? Who's we? I sure didn't
get the memo! Did you fill out your TPS report? Can you clarify?
>
> Executable code must not be stored on read/write media. At least not
> the same media to which data is written, and access to write data to
> software storage must not be possible through the execution of
> software; at least not software executing on the same CPU as
> already-installed software.
No offense, but are you on crack? Everything is a file, even an
executable. If you can't read the damn thing how are you going to run
it? Hell, an operating system is just a bunch of files... you're not
making any sense.

>
> Our CPUs need a mechanism to verify that the machine code instructions
> being executed have been previously authorized for execution by the
> CPU, i.e. the machine code is part of software that has been
> purposefully installed to a protected software storage separate
> (logically, at least, and both physically and logically separated at
> best) through actions that could not have been simulated or duplicated
> by the execution of machine code at runtime on the system's primary CPU.
What in the hell are you talking about again? Are you suggesting that we
should check every single possible instruction before it is executed?
What about the latency that this would cause? Your theory is far from
practical. Are you just trying to sound smart or something?

>
> The worst-case scenario of 'repair' and 'recovery' from any intrusion
> event should be verification of the integrity of protected storage,
> restore from backup of data storage, analysis of data processing and
> network traffic logs to ascertain the mode of intrusion (if possible)
> and reboot of the affected box with a staged reintroduction of the
> services that box previously provided (if you just re-launch all of
> the services being exposed by the box then it is just as vulnerable as
> before to whatever attack resulted in the intrusion, so you start from
> the most-locked-down condition and add services one at a time,
> monitoring for a period of time at each step).
VMware baby! 

By the way, do you follow this methodology?

>
> Depending on the length of time one is willing to monitor the box as
> it is staged into deployment again after recovery, and depending on
> the tools put into place to enable verification of the authenticity
> and 'correctness' of the machine code found to be present on the
> protected storage where software is installed, 'recovery' from any
> incident can be almost immediate, requiring little more than a reboot
> (the steps for which could also be optimized in a well-built secure
> computer system, since the objective really is nothing more than
> wiping all RAM and re-reading machine code from the protected storage
> after integrity verification is complete) ...
I hate the way you write, I can hardly understand what kind of craziness
you are proposing.
>
> All of the 'damage' and 'vulnerabilities' you're talking about stem
> directly from very bad business decisions made by owners of computer
> systems and from authors of software made to run on those computer
> systems. Hackers can be made irrelevant, and virtually all significant
> damage from 'intrusion' can be prevented in advance, by putting a stop
> to the world's addiction to the installation and execution of
> arbitrary code. The problem is that the computer industry has been
> built around providing financial rewards to the businesses that can
> get as many copies of their code executing as possible, and security
> barriers that curtail access to this cash generating machine would
> kill 75% of the existing computer industry.
Interesting rant man, very interesting. Security is nothing more than a
balance between limited functionality and business requirements. Your
secure world will never exist because the industry, hell the world,
won't work if it does. You need to consider whats real, whats possible,
and whats theory.

>
> I say let 'em die. Give us secure computing, and may every company
> that intentionally harms people for profit die a horrible and painful
> death that takes as many of its investors with it as possible in the
> process!
You are just trying to sound smart man.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jason Coombs
> jasonc@...ence.org
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
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-- 


Regards, 
	Adriel T. Desautels
	Harvard Security Group
	http://www.harvardsecuritygroup.com


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