Message-ID: <cd11001b4f5f307c9f3ee714e6b64621@opus1.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:38:32 -0700
From: Ronald Chmara <ron@...s1.COM>
To: Darren Reed <avalon@...igula.anu.edu.au>
Cc: bugtraq@...urityfocus.com, jmullee@...oo.com
Subject: Re: PHP security (or the lack thereof)


On Jun 24, 2006, at 3:42 PM, Darren Reed wrote:
> In some mail from john mullee, sie said:
>> --- Darren Reed <avalon@...igula.anu.edu.au> wrote:
>> I guess most of the remaining offending apps were written in C: as 
>> much as 96% ?!!
>> (including basically all of microsoft's stuff!!)
>>
>> Surely the least secure language of all time !!!
>>
>> Note also that no vulnerable apps were written in:
>>  - cobol, rpg3, prolog, ada, scheme, lisp, pl/1, occam, modula-2, or 
>> MIX
> But in the 1990s, Java was created.
> Java applications exist.
> Java servlets and applets also exist.
> There have barely a *handful* of JRE/JVM security problems.

Since this discussion started with dubious metrics (using how many 
posts were made to a discussion list, rather than how many security 
issues have been reported), I thought it might be wiser to use 
something with firmer metrics, actual CVE reports (insert disclaimer 
here):

Popular Web languages:
<http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=Python> has 17.
<http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=jsp> has 74.
<http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=Perl> has 94.
<http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=ASP> has 113.
<http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=Java> has 152.
<http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=Javascript> has 288.
<http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=cgi> has 576.
<http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=PHP> has 1181.

Web servers:
<http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=IIS> has 147.
<http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=Apache> has 193.

The usual suspects:
<http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=SQL+injection> has 
1434.
<http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=XSS> has 2121.

> So the point of this is to say that new, modern, development
> languages that are secure

For the fun of comparing apples and oranges:
<http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=Sendmail> has 61.

The newish Java language has more holes than the venerable sendmail 
application? ;-)

>  can be and are being developed and
> used.  That PHP is relatively new with respect to computing
> and has so many security problems should be an embaressment
> to its developers and users.

Or, alternately, perhaps Java is relatively new and also *rarely ever 
used, or deployed*, in comparison to PHP, which means that many fewer 
holes will ever be created, and thus, found.

Let's find some numbers... ah, here we go:
<http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/data/man.200605/apachemods.html>

Top PHP apache mods:
PHP: 5.69 million hosts
PHP-CGI: .28 million hosts

Top Java apache mods:
mod_jk: .41 million hosts
Jserv .1 million hosts

5.97 million PHP hosts, 43.1% marketshare, vs .51 million Java hosts, 
3.72% marketshare.
1181 PHP CVEs vs. 152 Java CVEs.

Only 8.5% of PHP's market share, but 12.8% of PHP's bugs? Is Java 
*less* secure than PHP? (Yikes... Mark Twain and all...)

> Or to put it another way, if there are so many security
> problems with PHP then the PHP development model or use model
> needs to be seriously reconsidered and redeveloped such that
> it is immune to such security issues.  This may, of course,
> mean throwing away PHP and starting over (see C/C++ -> Java).

As another poster pointed out to me quite eloquently, the learning 
curve seems to be the problem.

Apparently, PHP is too easy to use.

I say that with all seriousness, and kidding. Because PHP isn't hard to 
use, people who are inexperienced with writing secure internet 
applications are apparently using it to write Bad Code(tm) in droves.

-Bop
--
4245 NE Alberta Ct.
Portland, OR 97218
503-282-1370

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