Message-ID: <20020817054335.12235.qmail@email.com>
From: sockz at email.com (sockz loves you)
Subject: (no subject)

Dear Matthew Murphy,

When I first read your email I laughed a lot because I thought it was some
kind of joke.  Sadly, however, by the end I realised that perhaps you were
serious after all.  So I am replying to your letter in the hope that maybe
you are just misguided and can somehow be put back on track.

>     Over these last few days we have (obviously) faced numerous maladies
> such as mass junk mail, attacks against mailservers, ... but we are still
> here.  However, I see no need at all to bashing each other over our
> responses to the incident.  Fighting between ourselves and posting this crap
> on the list both amplifies the effect of the idiots' posts, and lets them
> know that their effort is working -- that has got to stop.

fighting between yourselves?  you mean debating right?  debating over what
is good and what is evil?  Matthew, i think your paranoia is playing up
again, the people on the list aren't fighting.  they're having an
intellectual discussion over the pros, cons, and alternatives to the
security industry.  JOIN IN!  unless you dont have anything intelligent to
contribute (as is being clearly demonstrated by the speculation, personal
attacks, and silliness of your email).
 
>     I will be the first one to say that I applaud how Len has handled all of
> this -- the list must not be moderated.  Moderating the list would be giving
> a victory to some of the lowest scum of all time.  Rather than seek
> alternatives, we have to be firm about the reason this list was created in
> the first place -- freedom of information.  This list was created to inform,
> and inform quickly.  By advocating moderation, you are essentially
> advocating destroying the list.

of course.  moderating the list would also mean that we couldn't have this
discussion, which i feel is important, not for me though, Matthew, but for
you.  you need to let go of all these fears that `hackers are trying to get
into your system 24/7' and start to embrace concepts like "free thought",
"rationality", and "understanding".
 
>     These last few days have been a test of how strongly we believed in the
> idea that all information should be delivered in a timely fashion.  Someone
> who truly believes in the concept of full disclosure will stand up for it
> even as the very concept itself is attacked.  Advocating moderation of the
> list, or bringing your personal struggles to the list as it faces this
> attack shows that your belief in the concept of full disclosure is
> incredibly weak.

yeah no i disagree.  i think over the past few days, if anything, real
intelligence has hit the list and you're not entirely sure as to how you
want to deal with it.  that's natural, Matthew, you're being intimidated,
your standing in the whitehat community seems to you as though it is being
threatened.  thats OKAY.  you just have to get past all that fear and start
to loosen up a bit.
 
>     We must direct our anger towards these losers at these losers.  Anything

this sentence didn't make sense to me.  could you please clarify?

> else is an attack against our own values.  While they claim to be hackers,
> their method of attack shows them to be nothing more than spoiled children.

could you please give an example to back up your views?  because you must
realise, Matthew, that we all come from different cultures.  what is a
spoiled child to you may be something completely different to the next
person.  also, by giving an example, and making your argument clearer, i
think you'll find that people will not only understand you more, but also
understand you enough that they can retort in a much more informed manner.
which helps the discussion overall.

> You can either fight them or give up, there's not an inch of middle ground.

oh no, wrong again.  keep trying, Matthew.  see, the middle ground is this
list.  it is our medium for discussion.  though in your case i think it
would be better exemplified by the analogy of a battlefield on which to
fight, although i dont back this idea 100%.

> Are you up for it?

up for what exactly?
-- 
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