From: somatose at cox.net (Chris Garrett)
Subject: Another list or this list in moderation.

I've had enough, and sending a single message to the offenders via personal
e-mail is far from sufficient, at this point. On various ocassions I have sent
personal emails to those who are pushing off-topic discussions, amongst several
other somewhat once-tolerable things, and I've only received argument in
response. Off-topic discussions are fine, as long as they somehow keep a foot in
the door of security and remain brief, but this list has turned to into IRC.

I don't particularly contribute to this list, but for quite some time I have
found to be quite valuable the posts which discuss security flaws,
vulnerabilities, fixes/patches, and proof of concept code. I have also valued,
to some degree, brief discussion threads that have taken place on the list;
however, the value of these rare posts no longer exceeds my irritation with the
flood of mail I am receiving from the list about topics that should be discussed
elsewhere. People are calling each other names and arguing over moot points!
Perhaps the points aren't moot to those arguing, but at least have the sense to
take discussions off the list. Some of the offenders might even agree with me,
but they wind up turning around and repeating the same actions. Unmoderated
lists that are as predominant as lists like this are unmoderated because the
creator and various supporters held the notion that those contributing to the
list had enough sense to maintain decorum and contribute mindful posts. Frankly,
it would seem that many contributors to the list lack that sense, and so, I am
unsubscribing.

I do not mean this as a personal attack on anyone, just a reality check. The
path this list has begun to follow is the very reason that lists are moderated.
Be aware of yourselves and considerate of others on the list. Many nod in
affirmation of this anecdote, but don't seem to really be self-aware or
considerate of others. Drop the egos and drop the pride. This is security, not
Jerry Springer or some RealTV show. Before I unsubscribe, however, I would like
suggestions for other lists, which may resemble this list to some degree, though
without the excessive IRC-like discussions. Please respond to me directly, as
responding to the list will probably cause arguments or more superfluous
opinions about great lists or not-so-great lists to flood FD.

[I'm also sure there will be others who will either respond publicly to this
message or use it as a reason to contribute their own thoughts and ideas.]

Christopher Garrett III
Inixoma, Incorporated

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