Message-ID: <3F237207.4050009@brvenik.com>
From: security at brvenik.com (Jason)
Subject: DCOM RPC exploit  (dcom.c)

Inline.

Chris Paget wrote:

> Comments inline.
> 
> 
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003, Jason wrote:
> 
> 
>>The war begins...
> 
> 
> I hope so.  Discussion of the hows and why's and morals of security and
> disclosure is *always* a good thing - which was partly why I made the original
> post.
> 

Hence the JUSTIFIED at the end of my mail.

I think that every time this debate comes up it is worth visiting again. 
  If one person realizes the futility of attempting to prevent the 
disclosure and release of this information will make them safe then it 
is worth the extra bits.

** The r00t of the problem is a failure to follow best practices from 
the start. **

> 
>>I'm not going to debate the release of code with anyone. Simply put,
>>best practices should have mitigated this in a huge way from the
>>beginning. All of the remaining threat should have been tested and
>>patched by now.
> 
> 
> In an ideal world, everyone would be patched by now.  The problem is, this is
> not an ideal world, most people will still be unpatched.  As for best practices
> - have you ever tried disabling RPC?  It's not actually possible - in fact,
> WinXP and 2003 will automatically reboot if RPC stops.  As for DCOM - the
> setting to disable it is a suggestion only, and applications can and will
> re-enable it whenever they use it, or else they'll just plain break.  So which
> "best practices" are you talking about?  Are you planning to install a separate
> firewall for every machine?  If so, maybe I should buy some stock in Zone Labs
> or ISS...!
> 

There is a huge difference between on by default and an application 
enabling the needed capabilities of an underlyting OS. There are also 
different builds of an OS. WinXP and WinXP Porfessional for example. If 
the two builds catered to the needs of the classic consumer then this 
problem is not worm worthy from the start. Show me any data that 
suggests that .0001% of the home users _NEED_ DCOM and I will stop drinking.

** The r00t here is best practices, failure at any level should be dealt 
with **

Unfortuantely this has not yet made it into the minds of the MSCE and 
the MS Developers. History shows us that the only way to make MegaCO 
give a damn is to cause an impact to the bottom line. If that MegaCO is 
a consumer or supplier makes no difference to me.

** Wash, rinse, repeat... **

> 
>>>Scanners are good; I agree they give out more information than an advisory, but
>>>it's still a step away from giving the kiddies a tool.  Those in the know will
>>>always be able to write an exploit from minimal details; whether or not the
>>>pre-pubescent h4xx0rs get hold of it is another matter though.
>>
>>I would rather have a pre-pubescent cracker knocking on the door with a
>>published sploit that I was forced to patch against any day when
>>compared to the 1337 h4x0r w17h 4 g04l and the funding to achieve it.
> 
> 
> But you'd still patch either way, right?  So we're talking about the difference
> between a knowledgeable, determined attacker (who can never be kept out) and a
> skript kiddie with a tool, who is just an annoyance.  But because of the
> exploit code, he's now a skript kiddie with a ten-thousand-node DDoS network at
> his disposal, who can (and probably will) DDoS anyone, anywhere, and there's
> nothing you can do to prevent it (short of getting very friendly with your
> upstream provider).

The upstream still will not prevent it but I am more ready to accept 
wide spread denial of service than I am to accept wide spread control of 
major infrastructures by a determined country with some bright citizens.

> 
> 
>>** Far too many people wait to patch until there is "published" exploit
>>code. **
> 
> 
> I agree - there's far too many people who wait.  But what about all the millions
> of home users who don't even know what a security patch *IS*, let alone how to
> find them?  Most people buy a computer, stick it on the net, and expect it to
> work.  They don't expect to be downloading updates every week.
>

See above, IMHO it is a social and national responsibility, regardless 
of orgin, to ensure that your products follow best practice. 
Unfortuantely history shows us that the only way to make this clear is 
through a bottom line impact.

> 
>>** If you have assets worth protecting you hire people who are capable
>>of protecting them. **
> 
> 
> The organisation concerned has hired many people who are perfectly capable of
> protecting their assets.  The problem is, they're concerned about the business
> as well - and given Microsoft's track history with patches, I can understand
> their not wanting to install every patch on every mission-critical server the
> moment it is released.  Allowing people to work is the primary goal of every
> server; security HAS to come second to that.

I am painfully aware of the 2nd nature of security. It is fortuantely 
getting much more attention these days which makes it 2nd instead of the 
obsure 9th it was. Publishing these issues raises the awareness and the 
public attention to the severity of the problem and results in better 
preperation at all levels. Until it can be shown that this is not the 
result of these efforts I will continue to support it.

> 
> 
>>* How many of the systems in your typical multinational organization
>>require the use of DCOM? ( slim to none? )
> 
> Agreed - very few, if any.
> 
>>* How many of the systems that require DCOM need rpc exposed to
>>everyone? ( slim to none? )
> 
> Also agreed.  But how many organisations firewall off internal servers from
> internal users (slim to none).  Bad practice, I'll agree, but expensive to
> implement if you choose to do it.
> 

Hardly expensive, if you combine the agreed upon position above and the 
ability for nearly all operating systems to perform local firewalling by 
default, you now have part of an inexpensive best practice 
implementation of defense in depth.

> 
>>* How many of the systems exposed to everyone have weak administrative
>>passwords? ( nearly all? )
> 
> 
> Define "weak".  If you mean "guessable within a week", I'd expect it to be
> very few.  If you mean "crackable from a copy of the SAM by an attacker with
> average resources before the password expires", probably most - especially given
> the recent advances in hash chaining techniques.
> 

I too would expect it to be few but my experiences have proven otherwise.

> 
>>* How many of the systems vulnerable internally would have been
>>protected by an IPS if it had a way of protecting? ( slim to none? )
>>
>>* How many of the systems vulnerable internally are protected with an
>>IDS? ( slim to none? )
> 
> 
> Detection and prevention is easier than you might think.  The moment that an IDS
> detects the string "Microsoft Windows 2000 [Version 5.00.2195] (C) Copyright
> 1985-2000 Microsoft Corp." in a network packet, it's a fair bet that it's as the
> result of an exploit.  Block the connection, block the IP.

Easier is completely subjective.

* How many headers carry that same string?
* How much does it cost to make a mistake?

I think you would be very suprised at the lack of effectiveness of your 
proposal. Version identification strings change constantly, you have to 
eliminate the "[Version 5.00.2195]" from any protection scheme to have a 
reasonable chance of being effective. You are left with "Microsoft 
Windows 2000" and "(C) Copyright 1985-2000 Microsoft Corp." Care to 
place odds on how much of that is seen on a network?

> 
> As for how many are protected - not enough, which is again a cost issue.  You
> ever looked at the price of an ISS RealSecure sensor?  And then multiplied that
> by a thousand to cover all your servers?  Besides - how many system
> administrators have the time to watch the IDS given the number of patches they
> have to install on all their servers?
> 

If your security people and your server people are the same you are 
asking for problems.

Comittments prevent me from commenting on the cost, feasibiltiy, and 
options. Suffice it to say that the cost is less than a day of downtime 
for your most used application for any IDS system you choose. The cost 
of your downtime is more than the risk for any IPS system you choose 
that uses these semantics.

> 
>>* How many of the systems vulnerable from the internet are implemented
>>and administered by an MCSE or equivelant? ( nearly all? )
> 
> 
> Agreed.  But I think many people on this list would agree that an exam you can
> pass after reading a book the night before is not worth much.
> 

This is why the clue stick was invented. If you hire someone because 
they passed a test then do not expect your systems to be secure, expect 
them to be substandard. Experience is what speaks.

> 
>>* I am still a firm believer in the ability of the human race to learn
>>by making mistakes. ( it can be fun )
> 
> 
> You and me both.  But how many worms is it going to take?

We can easily extend that, how many wars is it going to take?

Summary: It still happens and it always will. The major difference is 
the number of casualties.

:-( I was soooo looking forward to a comment on shock and awe. Kudos!

Powered by blists - more mailing lists