Message-ID: <BC28790C.2172%marukka@mac.com>
From: marukka at mac.com (Matt Burnett)
Subject: Professional Groups

I used to work for a public high school as a perenment consultant (sys/net
admin), and the technicians/helpdesk personel were unionized. I don?t really
think it helped at all. I watched people abuse the system on a consitent
basis by playing video games when work should have been done. When large
budget cuts came this fiscal year they had to get rid of someone, although
they did want to get rid of the people abusing the system, there was nothing
they could do. So I ended up being let go, even though my performance was
good. Although I do like the idea of getting rid of MCSEs who only have
expierence in a class room, I don?t think unions would help get rid of them,
I personally think it would only make things even worse.

On 1/12/04 3:33 PM, "Bart.Lansing@...ls.com" <Bart.Lansing@...ls.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel...
> 
> This is off-topic as well...and probably should not even be here...but...
> 
> As a former Teamster who later moved into the systems world..."horse
> hockey".  Unions have not stopped the flood of jobs overseas, do not have
> the right to impose product decisions or have the authority to dictate "Oh,
> we don't like that we have to fix what you bought...we demand extra money
> for that above and beyond our normal paychecks..." (after all...it's part
> of your job), would put you under far more stringent rules of behavior than
> you have experience with (apparently), and...I'm very sorry you feel
> "exploited"...perhaps you should go to work "for" the Teamsters...you'd
> make a fine rabble-rousing organizer :)
> 
> Sadly, it's a case of rhetoric and no supporting  fact that you've made
> though.
> 
> And finally, you just had to close with: "If we are going to change our
> industry so that we can succeed at
>> our jobs, we need a union. Period. "...
> 
> Kindly speak for yourself...I'm succeeding quite nicely in my job, thank
> you...and I certainly don't need a union to "help" me with that.  I feel
> sorry that you feel you can't succeed without one....but I'm betting you
> are in a very very small minority who believe that they either are not
> succeeding...or need a union to make that happen.
> 
> 
> full-disclosure-admin@...ts.netsys.com wrote on 01/12/2004 02:31:03 PM:
> 
>>> It's time we as a professional group start talking and walking like
>>> adults (at least more than in the past), I think. Just playing with
>>> computers is fine, but not enough.
>> 
>>> Agreed.  And believe me, I have spent many an hour trying to figure out
>> 
>>> how to approach the problem.  Unfortunately, every solution I can come
>>> up with involves educating the masses . . . many of whom don't want to
>>> be confused with facts . . .  ;>
>> 
>> This is off topic but I couldn't help myself. What we need is a union.
>> Why? Well right now, management generally buys the software that has the
>> cutest infobabes, the best promise, or safe branding (Microsoft). If we
>> had a union that negotiated a contract that paid us extra for fixing
>> software failures or broken installs, so that the bottom line got hurt
>> by the crap these people sell, it would take about 5 minutes for the
>> priorities to change in purchasing decisions and for SLAs and tech
>> support to be ratcheted up where they belong.
>> 
>> Speaking as a US citizen, if we were Teamsters and honored their picket
>> lines think of the leverage we would have. Scab truck drivers are
>> available, but imagine the chaos of scab sys admins or firewall
>> administrators? And of course when the Teamsters honor our picket lines,
>> that wouldn't hurt a bit.
>> 
>> Be nice to keep our jobs from going to third world countries where tech
>> professionals are even more exploited than here.
>> 
>> But of course, all my technical professional colleagues will pooh-pooh
>> the idea of a union. They always do. Think about this, a union for us
>> could be like the bar associatio for lawyers or the AMA for doctors. We
>> could impose stringent professional abilities, certifications, and
>> requirements to ensure we are a professional, capable body of people. We
>> could institute apprenticeships so we have  a supply of people who are
>> more than paper MCSEs or CCNAs.
>> 
>> I am very fortunate that I work in an enlightened company that pays more
>> than lip service to standards and security. Management totally backs us
>> up on secure and safe computing. No IM, no HTML mail, no user installed
>> software. A budget for security and training. It is wonderfule.  It is
>> also the first employer in my 15 years of IT experience that follows
>> through on these things. But I remember the pain and anguish from
>> before. If we are going to change our industry so that we can succeed at
>> our jobs, we need a union. Period.
>> 
>> 
>> Dan Sichel, Network Engineer
>> Ponderosa Telephone Company
>> (559) 868-6367
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
>> Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
> 
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