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From: jcfunkjr at co.bucks.pa.us (Funk Jr, Joseph C.)
Subject: Professional Groups

     I know this has gone way off list but to add my couple pennies and agree with LanGuy.  I happen to be stuck in a union environment - all the NW Engineers are union all the way down to helpdesk.   I am and have been on contract for almost 3 years with this union shop (Local Govt.) and cannot get a job because they are union all they way to the lowest level but they need me so they've extended my contract past an original 2 months time and again.  They can't hire me because of grievances, they can't fire anyone who shouldn't be working in their position because of grievances.  Unions are fine for some jobs, but things like engineers, scientists, and the like should not be Union IMVHO.  I believe it only servers to keep the talent pool in Union shops to an all time low.  It ends up something akin to pre-perestroika Soviet work ethics.  Why work harder (learn more / new things) if there is no benefit to doing so, and no danger of loosing your employment from doing otherwise (sitting on their collective laurels).  Union has it's place, I just don't think this is it -yet.

-joe-

-----Original Message-----
From: Lan Guy [mailto:rlanguy@...mail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:55 AM
To: Daniel Sichel; full-disclosure@...ts.netsys.com
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Professional Groups


Have you considered the disbenefit of such a move. Your employer could end
up having to pay you less. Force you into a group life savings plan  (saving
the employer money). Force your employer to decide your HMO.

What I think you really mean is that we need an indepentent testing
mechanism, that is not vendor baised, that can judge by a persons knowledge,
education and experience.
But we already have that:
http://www.sans.org/
http://www.comptia.org/default.asp

Just look around
Lan Guy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Daniel Sichel" <daniels@...derosatel.com>
To: <full-disclosure@...ts.netsys.com>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:31 PM
Subject: [Full-Disclosure] Professional Groups


> > It's time we as a professional group start talking and walking like
> > adults (at least more than in the past), I think. Just playing with
> > computers is fine, but not enough.
>
> >Agreed.  And believe me, I have spent many an hour trying to figure out
>
> >how to approach the problem.  Unfortunately, every solution I can come
> >up with involves educating the masses . . . many of whom don't want to
> >be confused with facts . . .  ;>
>
> This is off topic but I couldn't help myself. What we need is a union.
> Why? Well right now, management generally buys the software that has the
> cutest infobabes, the best promise, or safe branding (Microsoft). If we
> had a union that negotiated a contract that paid us extra for fixing
> software failures or broken installs, so that the bottom line got hurt
> by the crap these people sell, it would take about 5 minutes for the
> priorities to change in purchasing decisions and for SLAs and tech
> support to be ratcheted up where they belong.
>
> Speaking as a US citizen, if we were Teamsters and honored their picket
> lines think of the leverage we would have. Scab truck drivers are
> available, but imagine the chaos of scab sys admins or firewall
> administrators? And of course when the Teamsters honor our picket lines,
> that wouldn't hurt a bit.
>
> Be nice to keep our jobs from going to third world countries where tech
> professionals are even more exploited than here.
>
> But of course, all my technical professional colleagues will pooh-pooh
> the idea of a union. They always do. Think about this, a union for us
> could be like the bar associatio for lawyers or the AMA for doctors. We
> could impose stringent professional abilities, certifications, and
> requirements to ensure we are a professional, capable body of people. We
> could institute apprenticeships so we have  a supply of people who are
> more than paper MCSEs or CCNAs.
>
> I am very fortunate that I work in an enlightened company that pays more
> than lip service to standards and security. Management totally backs us
> up on secure and safe computing. No IM, no HTML mail, no user installed
> software. A budget for security and training. It is wonderfule.  It is
> also the first employer in my 15 years of IT experience that follows
> through on these things. But I remember the pain and anguish from
> before. If we are going to change our industry so that we can succeed at
> our jobs, we need a union. Period.
>
>
> Dan Sichel, Network Engineer
> Ponderosa Telephone Company
> (559) 868-6367
>
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
>

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