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From: remko at (Remko Lodder)
Subject: Yes, user education is a lost cause ;-)

I Strongly agree,

The middle way has to be, more secure programming, and
also education your people (Students, employee's, whomever).
In this way you ask both ways to think about it. And there
shall always be vulnerabilities and users who don't understand
or dont want to understand security, but that's life.

One wants to go right (the secure way) and the other one goes left...

Anyway, instead of asking if it's a lost cause, perhaps we can all say,
well these methods seem to work, lets produce a whitepaper with guidelines
for programmers, and a paper with guidelines in educating your people.

How's that ? ;-)




Kind regards,

Remko Lodder Dutch community for helping newcomers on the

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
[]Namens Mattias
Verzonden: donderdag 22 januari 2004 11:38
Onderwerp: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Yes, user education is a lost cause ;-)

>> "SPL" == Schmehl, Paul L <> writes:

SPL> Given this logic then, isn't it the user's fault for leaving the
SPL> door open on their PC?  Do you blame the home builder if the
SPL> owner leaves the door unlocked?  ISTM that your culture teaches
SPL> you that it's the users' responsibility, not the manufacturers'.

It seems like every argument in this discussion is angled into this
either being the fault of the user OR the developer. Isn't it more
logical to assume that there are probably a lot of things that can
be improved on BOTH ends?

We can not assume that the majority of users will ever know all they
should know about computers and security before using one, but at the
same time we can't just take ALL the blame away from the user when bad
stuff happens. There must be a middle ground somewhere.

I do firmly believe that software developers should be a lot more
security aware, and especially in "out of the box" products. It is way
better for everyone if users has to "opt-out" of security features,
than to have things open by default and to "opt-in" later.


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