Message-ID: <81637804AB36A644BBDE3ED9DD4E73FD9C43A9@hermes.eCompany.gov>
From: dcopley at eeye.com (Drew Copley)
Subject: RE: [kinda-but-not-really-Full-Disclosure-so-we-feel-warm-and-fuzzy] Re: <to various comments>EEYE: Microsoft ASN.1 ...

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brett Moore [mailto:brett@...twarecreations.co.nz] 

Oh no, not the OTHER kiwi... ;)


> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 2:12 AM
> To: Drew Copley
> Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.netsys.com
> Subject: RE: 
> [kinda-but-not-really-Full-Disclosure-so-we-feel-warm-and-fuzz
> y] Re: <to various comments>EEYE: Microsoft ASN.1 ...
> 
> Its great...
> 
> With the MS patching been relegated to monthly, it means we 
> only have to put up with this crap once a month... but man it 
> drags on.. and on...
> and on....
> 
> Everyone has an opinion, agreed. But its not like those same 
> opinions are not shared by others.. Some would like full 
> disclosure, because its interesting and inciteful... And 
> knowing how to exploit one bug can lead to the discovery of 
> similar bugs... But then we may as well start discussing the 
> fact that if researchers didn't find and disclose bugs, then 
> would the 'bad guys' really find them... Maybe, maybe not.. 
> But I'd bet top $ that there are 'bad guys' out there finding 
> these things for a reason and not disclosing. Because said 
> 'bad guys' are not part of what we call the 'security community'...

Could not agree more.

In my opinion, it is moot whether they are or not. I have seen
undisclosed vulnerabilities being used in the wild before for seriously
malicious purposes. Sure. But, come on. This is like having a patent on
the light bulb and not selling it. The demand is there and it is just so
great. You have your criminal elements. You have your systems. You have
your information. It is like saying, "Well, rich people walk through the
ghetto and don't get mugged who is to say they ever will?" Of course
they will. 

Maybe people have spent too much time watching television or reading
junk books and magazines to recall that there really is organized crime.
There has been for a very long time. And, there are a lot of groups.
They are small and large, they are old and new. 

Then, you have the fact that hacking can obtain secrets fancy spy
satellites and even human intelligence simply can not obtain. Do we know
what the GNP of nations are? 

Or, what about corporations themselves? I am not a conspiracy theorist,
but where there is money there is a way. There is a such thing as
corporate espionage. Come on, people.



> 
> Because it must be realised that as soon as a patch and or 
> advisory is released there are global teams of people working 
> to discover and exploit said bug.
> I'd take a stab and say US, Chinese, Russian, Middle eastern 
> and possibly even outerspace 'spy' agencies as well as 
> organised crime and mafia  right down to 'hacking' groups, 
> uni students and other security enthusiasts.

And what do you know? You make the same argument as I do...

You agree with me.

And also happen to be a bugfinder.


> 
> It's pretty obvious with the latest releases from ngssoftware 
> that they are not providing any details... And eEye it seems 
> is no longer providing step by step intructions... Thats 
> their choice. In fact we should be lucky that they provide 
> any details, or would you prefer that they kept quiet and MS 
> just released patches for 'undisclosed' problems...

I am refraining from making a comment here. Lol...

> 
> Or is there a real need for a 'real-full-disclosure' list 
> where membership is restricted and details are shared (if it 
> doesn't already exist)...

More... Refraining... From... Comments...

> If that happened then ppl that don't like it should not 
> subscribe, and then they can feel better... Ignorance is 
> bliss (thats a phrase not something directed at anyone, in 
> fact I sometimes prefer bliss).

I want the government to give me a badge that let's me carry assault
weapons.

That is all I want.

My next door neighbor is a cop. He gets to carry a gun. 

Lol... 

> 
> > Administrators don't need this crap to fix their boxes, they simply 
> > need
> Some do, some don't.. But all developers of internet facing 
> applications, sure as hell better care about this stuff.
> 
> > running.  The average worm writer is not competent enough 
> to reverse 
> > engineer a ms patch to find the changed code and produce a working
> Perhaps,.. Code red was intense in the 'features' that it 
> used and even the method of exploiting the bug..
> And wasn't it the peeps from x-focus that published details 
> of the RPC Dcom bug, after LSD refused to release details....
> 
> To quote a kiwi drinking at a bar 'we should just say that 
> there are no more bugs, and that all computers are secure'....

We could avoid this hassle, anyway.

> 
> And the rapping and other humor in advisories.. So what.. Who 
> decided that this industry couldn't be fun... Just because 
> ppl are highly intelligent and tuned into security research, 
> doesn't mean they are not allowed to have a laugh...
> 
> >The strategy is simple, patch, patch, patch.
> Yup. Because with or without 'step by step' deatils, the 
> timeframe is down to less than 60 days, if not 30.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: full-disclosure-admin@...ts.netsys.com
> [mailto:full-disclosure-admin@...ts.netsys.com]On Behalf Of 
> Paul Tinsley
> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 7:57 PM
> To: Drew Copley
> Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.netsys.com
> Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Re: Re: <to various comments>EEYE:
> Microsoft ASN.1 ...
> 
> 
> Drew Copley wrote:
> 
> >Without replying to each troll, individually, I thought maybe some 
> >people would like to see some answers to some notes.
> >
> >
> Most of these are from me, so I will personally respond to 
> those that apply.  And believe it or not, this is not a 
> troll, I really wanted to see people's viewpoints on this 
> subject.  Thats the neat part about us not all working at the 
> same company or striving for the same goals, we have 
> different viewpoints.  Asking for enumeration of those CAN be 
> for purposes other than trolling, if I wanted to troll I 
> would just reload the slashdot main page till a new story 
> came out and mention something about hot grits and first post.
> 
> >These are my own comments, I speak for myself.
> >
> >Question: "Why release all of the details"
> >
> >
> This statement is not an accurate paraphrase, I didn't say 
> why release them all.  I said why release them all on day 0 
> of the patch release.
> 
> >Answer: Polls show this is what administrators what. This is 
> one reason 
> >we do this. Another reason we do this is simple, we use the details 
> >ourselves. We use the details to create signatures for our 
> >vulnerability assessment tool and firewall. Security administrators 
> >then download these signatures and use them to check for 
> patches or to 
> >protect systems which can not yet be patched.
> >
> >
> Administrators don't need this crap to fix their boxes, they 
> simply need the exploit vectors, the possible mitigation 
> steps, and the potential severity of the vulnerability.  No 
> sysadmin should have time, nor care about the call made to 
> localalloc, the decoder functions it effects, etc...  The 
> pieces that are needed to make a threat assessment and 
> develop a mitigation strategy, IMHO, are all in your 
> bulletin, and contained in these sections: Systems Affected, 
> Services Affected, Software Affected, Description, Severity.  
> From that it's pretty obvious how bad this one can be, 
> knowing that we can't make people stop using Outlook in a 
> corporate environment, or stop using Internet Explorer to go 
> to several popular sites, or any of the other numerous 3rd 
> party apps that are affected by this.  The strategy is 
> simple, patch, patch, patch.
> 
> That is something that takes time in a large enterprise where 
> you have to worry about the effects it will have on day to 
> day business.  You can't just flip a switch and deploy vendor 
> patches the day they come out, I think we all know that 
> Microsoft patches do have bugs from time to time and knowing 
> how these will affect your "officially supported"
> corporate applications is important.  Reducing the safe 
> margin of time that one has to do that IS a problem in my eyes.
> 
> >It does not matter if it is eEye you are talking about in this 
> >scenario, or one of our competitors. This is the "behind the scenes" 
> >picture of what happens when a patch is released.
> >
> Show me one competitor that releases such detail at day 0 of 
> patch release.
> 
> >
> >When we - or our competitors - do not have full details on a 
> >vulnerability, we have to reverse engineer the patch to do 
> so. And, we 
> >all do this.
> >
> >
> I am sorry that you have to do what you get paid to do.  
> Would it be an unreasonable thing to consider a gentlemans 
> agreement between assessment vendors to share network 
> behavioral fingerprints for vulns such as these?  The finder 
> still gets credit, the vendor still gets to help his clients, 
> and next time he isn't the one to find it he still gets to 
> help his clients.  Seems like a decent deal to me...
> 
> >So, people complaining about us releasing all of the details... They 
> >simply are ignorant of what must be done in this process. 
> They like to 
> >scream and shout about how a worm will be coming and such, nevermind 
> >that they don't even understand our advisories in the first place.
> >
> >
> >
> Don't hold yourself in such high reguard to believe that 
> people the likes of me cannot comprehend your bulletins, you 
> would be wrong.
> 
> >And if this does not make it all incredibly clear, let's 
> spell it out 
> >for them: we can reverse engineer the patches and have to... 
> If virus 
> >writers want to, they can, too, as well.
> >
> >
> Tell me that you have seen complex worms recently?  Most if 
> not all of them are cobbled together from exploit code the 
> author found on some leet mad phat message board and added in 
> some visual basic or visual c to tie the whole thing together 
> to get their spam gateway up and running.  The average worm 
> writer is not competent enough to reverse engineer a ms patch 
> to find the changed code and produce a working exploit from it.
> 
> [ .. snip .. ]
> 
> >Question/Comment: "What is this thing with rapping?"
> >
> >Answer: We have had these kinds of things in our advisories since we 
> >started releasing them way back when.
> >
> >Derek, at times, feels the need to bust a rhyme.
> >
> >You are not going to stop him.
> >
> >
> Don't plan to, but perception is reality, if you look like a 
> script kiddy, it's going to be really really hard for a large 
> company to write you a fat check.  I don't know if you 
> noticed but the day of cutsie titles are playful antics are a 
> thing of the past, most people have gotten back to real 
> business by now.
> 
> >And, I have tried. Knives, ropes, pits, strangulation. He is 
> quite wily.
> >
> [ .. snip .. ]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
> 
> 
> 

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