Message-ID: <6D7ECB844E49C54CBC98D46BA82F24DEB1AC4F@BC-MAIL01.WKKF.ORG>
From: DBM at wkkf.org (Dan  B. Mann)
Subject: MS Anti Virus?


   From my perspective, a place that MS needs to also focus on is the
patch scanning technology.  SMS, WindowsUpdate, MBSA, all can give
different, confusing results even when scanning the same machine!
Please, give me a scanner that covers all of your internal products, and
gives reliable results.  Having one tool contradict another ends up
creating a mess, and it is frightening.  It's not fun to try and track
down a bunch of machines on a weekly basis to really find out whether
they are patched or not.

Does Microsoft read this list?

I will give Kudos to Microsoft for making an effort to IMPROVE themself
regarding security though.  

Dan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: full-disclosure-admin@...ts.netsys.com [mailto:full-disclosure-
> admin@...ts.netsys.com] On Behalf Of Steffen Schumacher
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 12:51 PM
> To: joe
> Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.netsys.com
> Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] MS Anti Virus?
> 
> On 17.06.2004 11:51:46 +0000, joe wrote:
> > However the worms would be blocked if people had patched their
machine
> or
> > otherwise properly administrated the machines they were responsible
for.
> All
> > of the worms that I think you are probably referring to all had
patches
> well
> > in advance of the worm that impacted it, blaster, slammer, sasser,
etc.
> >
> 
> Agreed.
> I'm not saying that MS doesn't provide patches - they do.
> I simply think that the amount of bugs in MS' OS' are to great.
> If you install windows and attempt to either patch it or install
firewall
> afterwards while on the live internet - Your chances of getting
infected
> are quite high. The time it takes to install patches or a firewall may
in
> some situations be longer then it would take for a user to get
infected.
> 
> I picture it a bit like a para trooper which has noo means of defense
> until
> he lands and can take cover.
> Other OS' like FreeBSD take a different approach. All non vital
services
> are
> disabled until the user explicitly installs or enables them.
> 
> Microsofts products should provide the means to a secure patch before
> risky
> services like DCOM are enabled.
> This should in fact be the case everytime a MS pc starts up.
> Otherwise a pc which has been offline for a period may become infected
> while
> patching.
> 
> But ultimately MS have to catch more of their serious bugs before
> releasing
> their software. Consider how many resources that are spent on
patching.
> Could they have been spent revising code in stead?
> I wonder what the average load on the windows update server park is...
> 
> 
> > Home users never should have been impacted as they should be running
> > firewall software on the internet connections. The fact that they
don't
> > isn't MS's fault, however MS is stepping up with XP SP2 to help out.
On
> top
> > of that they should be patching when necessary.
> >
> > Corporate users shouldn't have been impacted either and were only
> because
> > the IT department didn't keep the machines patched properly. Too
many
> > companies run on a deploy and forget strategy, this doesn't work for
any
> OS
> > be it Windows, *nix, or ios. I am not saying keeping them patched is
an
> easy
> > task, I managed 400 servers in a Fortune 5 company that were
distributed
> > around the world. None of them ran antivirus, none of them got
infected
> by
> > either viruses nor worms, none of them allowed any but only a small
> number
> > of people to have admin rights to do harm to them. When a patch came
out
> > that affected those servers, it was on the machines in a rather
quick
> > fashion, generally within 72 hours depending on testing times.
> >
> >
> > Thinking that there will never be code patches required isn't
realistic.
> It
> > is humans writing the code and even the humans writing the other
Oses
> make
> > mistakes and need to release patches. If the people who manage the
> machines
> > don't take the time to apply the patches then the issue isn't an MS
> issue,
> > it is an admin issue.
> >
> I know. I just wan't fewer. When you sell these amounts of
functionality
> which is reused in multiple future software, then one should *REALLY*
test
> it better, or lower the prices.
> 
> >
> >
> > > The *real* IT department could then link to the
> > > executeable and place it on an intranet server
> > > which would be secure.
> >
> > This is an interesting idea but I can't see how one could do it in a
> > feasible manner in a large company that is receiving hundreds of
> thousands
> > of emails from the outside a day. Also you would have to watch for
> internal
> > emails and attachments as well because you could get an infected
machine
> on
> > the inside. Now in large companies you are up to millions of emails.
> >
> > My recommendation to the email manager at the time of the last major
> > outbreak where they started just stipping all ZIPs from emails was
that
> they
> > strip ALL attachments that didn't have a specific internally defined
> > extension on them, that way they knew it was a purposeful thing that
> that
> > attachment was there. The extension would be something specific to a
> company
> > and people involved know that extension. Obviously this is just a
crutch
> to
> > block the issue with well known executable file extensions.
> >
> > The file associations are a tough thing to repeal since they are so
> deeply
> > embedded in how things are done on Windows and people have gotten so
> used to
> > them; it made life easier for a majority of the users and was a
great
> idea
> > at the time. Now however, if you, for instance, removed the DOC
> extension
> > from the file associations half the corporate Windows Admins out
there
> would
> > be at a complete loss as to why Word wasn't working... Those bad
Windows
> > Admins are partially MS's fault, but mostly the fault of companies
who
> look
> > for cheap admins versus good admins.
> >
> >   joe
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steffen Schumacher [mailto:ssch@...el.dk]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 10:43 AM
> > To: joe
> > Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.netsys.com
> > Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] MS Anti Virus?
> >
> >
> > While I have no numbers to back this up, I do think that worms are
far
> worse
> > when it comes to the extent of which viruses spread, and speed.
> > It is my belief that most worms are based upon MS exploits, rather
then
> > social engineering.
> >
> > It is my belief that we will simply have to wait untill MS cleans up
> their
> > act, which they should be doing, before the world becomes a better
place
> to
> > live.
> >
> > I realize that this doesn't clear situtations like the one above,
but in
> > general such situations can't really be solved unless all mails are
> scanned
> > extensively, and / or the people are educate enough so that they
never
> > should run executeables recieved from mail (its actually quite
simple to
> > me). The *real* IT department could then link to the executeable and
> place
> > it on an intranet server which would be secure.
> >
> > /Steffen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> > Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
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