Message-ID: <20040720112614.R29547@ubzr.zsa.bet>
From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson)
Subject: IE

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Cory Crawford wrote:

<Miscellaneous ad hominem and self referential blather about how people
hate us because they have a different God, etc., elided>


> As for America being so terrible. We provide the most money, people, and
> support to humane causes then any other single or group of countries.

This does not wipe out our sins: mass murder is not part of a zero-sum
ethics game.

> Who are you to say what the Israelis do or think is wrong and thus they
> are mass-murderers?

Any country that deliberately massacres civilians is, by definition,
guilty of genocide.

> See it's hypocritical people like you who are the
> problem. You sympathize and try to have understanding for terrorists,
> and yet you have no compassion or love for innocent people.

<lmao> Innocent? Like the Israeli's are "innocent"?  Rigghhhttt.

Hey: don't forget to claim that I'm an "anti-semite" just because I don't
carry the Israeli flag in my pocket.

> America isn't the problem.

You really don't have even a hint of a clue.  Wow!

> If it were countries, including your precious U.N,
> would stop asking us to fix all the world's problems. I'm sure there are
> many of us who would agree with you and we should not help our friends
> and allies or anyone else for that matter.

We're not talking about "the UN asking us to fix the worlds problems".
We're talking about premeditated, ongoing, genocide being committed by
Israel, with our explicit and implicit support.  By your own "soldier's
logic", that makes America the enemy of anyone who is a victim of the
Israeli slaughters.

> Yet, when there's a crisis or
> a tyrant killing innocent people you will whine and say "why aren't we
> doing anything?

This is a non-argument.  A sideliner.  We are not talking about this
"other case", however, since you seem determined to tell me how I would
react - I'm pretty open and vocal, as you can see.  A quick search of
google will tell you that you are 100% full of shit on this.

> America is evil. We are selfish. We just sit and do
> nothing while making money off the sweat and blood of innocent victims."

Again, not my position, nor is it a topic under discussion.  We are
talking about a specific thing: the open, brazen support for a country
that appears to be dedicated to the removal of another race from the
planet.  Hrmmm... Why does that sound familiar?

> When will your hypocrisy end? I say never.

When you can find "hypocracy", then we'll talk.  For now, you're just
making shit up, and then attacking it.

> The reason is is that despite
> all of your supposedly intelligent word smithing and wise cracks you are
> just another fool who thinks they know more than the lowly humans you
> share this planet with.

Example?  Oh yes - my beliefs are different than yours, ergo, you are
right, I am wrong, and by extension, a hypocrite, terrorist, "fringe
lunatic", etc.  You are doing a *really* good job of making my arguments
*for me*.


> I served this country and fought for it as an Infantryman.

And here, finally - *mercifully* - we get to the crux of your issue.  You
are still in military mode: We will tell you what to believe, and you will
do as told.

Try using your own brain (which should still be attached to your own eyes
BTW) to do a little research, and then come up with your own, *reasoned*
beliefs and opinions.  Spouting this unthinking crap makes you look like
your enemy Bin Laden: spewing crap because it's "the right belief" -
without any worries about fact or falsity.

> You know
> nothing about what our soldiers fight and die for.

Really?  Are you about to claim I didn't serve with distinction?  How do
you supposedly know this "fact"?

> You talk about
> America sends it's soldiers to do their dirty work. Yet, we are one of
> the only countries in the world where our soldiers volunteer and go of
> their own free will.

How does this have *anything* to do with the subject at hand?  Spewing
random justifications for random acts and non-acts doesn't do anything for
your cause.  It just questions your ability to reason.

> Unlike your precious dictators, tyrants, and
> terrorists who force, coerce, or raise their people to believe that
> giving their life is their duty and responsibility. While fat, lazy,
> self-proclaimed intellectuals like yourself sit back and think how awful
> and backward America is.

More ad hominem blather.  Please continue - you continue to make my case.

Foaming True Believers, whether American nut jobs like you, or Afghani nut
jobs like Bin Laden, are *ALL* still nut jobs.


> As for your "brave" terrorists, you are obviously not nearly as bright
> as you proclaim to be

More ad hominem.  You realize that if this were high school, or even grade
school level debate, you'd have forfeit already, right?

> if you think this is bravery. Bravery isn't
> killing yourself. That's an easy way out. Bravery isn't attacking
> innocent men, women, and children.

Agreed.  So, lets get the Israelis to stop it, rather than preventing the
world from doing anything about it.

> Bravery is fighting for as long as
> you are able to draw breath for what you believe. Bravery is putting
> your life on the line for the liberty of others in hopes that you will
> survive to do it again another day but not afraid if that chance doesn't
> come. My drill sergeant taught us what bravery is, "Bravery isn't dying
> for your country. Bravery is giving the other guy the maximum
> opportunity to die for his!"

Rah rah...  Whatever.  Please note that assymetric warfare is the great
equalizer, and has been throughout history.  When you are facing an enemy
with orders of magnitude more men and materiel, it is the only way you can
defeat your enemy.

All of that military pseudobullshit aside, WE created these fucking
terrorists by *supporting* the Israeli terrorists.  We are, by every
morally defensible position, the enemy of all who have suffered under
these campaigns of mass murder, torture, and terror.

Remember - historically, Israel was FOUNDED as a terrorist state.
Remember Menachim Begin?  That dude *set the standards* for terror!

As to the palestinians, they are taking in the example set by their
current oppressors: kill enough people, and you'll get whatever you want.

What's good for the goose...

> You would love for this to be about Bush, but it's not. No one seemed to
> mind Clinton dodging the draft.

Really?  Once again, before putting words into my mouth, maybe you should
check google.

> Maybe Bush could've served more visibly so you could have warm fuzzies,

Maybe Bush could have *served* - period.

> but as anyone who has served knows that service is service.

If you show up.

> You don't have to be an Infantryman trained to face
> the enemy at the end of a barrel to serve and sacrifice for your
> country.

But you do have to show up, honor the uniform, and follow orders.  Or are
things different now?

> Why don't you stop hating America, supporting cold-blooded,
> spineless killers,

Like Israel, and by extension, America?

> pointing fingers and calling names, whining,

Doctor!!!  Heal Thyself!!!

> and
> start thinking about the good that is America and the American people.
> After all, the American people are great and made up of more than Bush,
> rich businessmen, and white racist males. America is the best, and
> sometimes the worst, of every country and every culture in the world.

And that has squat to do with the entire discussion.  You keep asserting
that our good outweighs our evil, but that is not a morally defensible
position.  Not even under the UCMJ.

> I'll let you soak up my drivel. Respond if you like, but this is the
> last email I will generate on the topic.

Blessed is the creator!

> You may lecture others on how
> wonderfully brilliant you are when you wake, but I'll pass on your
> "wisdom" and brilliant word smithing in exchange for some common sense.


Be certain to go to the polls too.  I will be there, and you'll want to
make sure tha the Angry Midget in Washington can get re-appointed.

> -A soldier, and American

You are a disgrace to the uniform.

-- 
Yours,

J.A. Terranson
sysadmin@....org
0xBD4A95BF

  "...justice is a duty towards those whom you love and those whom you do
  not.  And people's rights will not be harmed if the opponent speaks out
  about them."      Osama Bin Laden
	- - -

  "There aught to be limits to freedom!"    George Bush
	- - -

Which one scares you more?

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